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Re:Spending 3 months investigating a 7-year old bug and fixi... by stavros on Friday June 21, 2024 @05:55PM (#40754248)
This is laughably false. The highly-paid, experienced seniors produce so much more value than juniors that it's not even in the same ballpark. It's also usually the kind of value that juniors don't even notice, because it's not measured in lines of code.

A good junior will write a hundred lines of code in a day. A good senior will delete a hundred because they realize the user dictated a solution instead of detailing their problem, asked them, and figured out that they can solve that problem by changing a config variable somewhere.

Re:Spending 3 months investigating a 7-year old bug and fixi... by mewpmewp2 on Friday June 21, 2024 @06:59PM (#40754711)
Yes, but they don't get paid as many times as junior engs compared to how many more times value they bring.
Re:Spending 3 months investigating a 7-year old bug and fixi... by klabb3 on Friday June 21, 2024 @09:56PM (#40755556)
Violent agree on variance in value produced. Violent disagree on that junior, senior or other titles or roles have such strong correlations. For very simple reasons: we can’t measure value, and we absolutely can’t measure value within a performance review cycle.

The most devastating value destruction (aside from the rare intern deleting the prod db) that I’ve seen consistently is with senior/rockstars who introduce new tech, takes credit, moves on. There’s a reason for the term resume driven development. Think about what a negative force multiplier can do for an org.

Re:Spending 3 months investigating a 7-year old bug and fixi... by stavros on Saturday June 22, 2024 @03:24AM (#40757134)
I don't know, I think where I work we have a pretty good idea for the value each person brings. I don't know how much they're paid, but I do know how good each person is (including whether they tend to complicate things, to use exciting technologies, etc).

Maybe it varies per company.

Re:Spending 3 months investigating a 7-year old bug and fixi... by mulmen on Saturday June 22, 2024 @05:12AM (#40757577)
> I don't know how much they're paid

But that’s the entire point you’re missing. The pay is not proportional to contribution or technical skill. It’s proportional to market forces and negotiation skill.

Re:Spending 3 months investigating a 7-year old bug and fixi... by stavros on Saturday June 22, 2024 @08:57AM (#40758819)
I know what level each of our people is, and levels are compensated fairly evenly. The fact that I don't know exact numbers doesn't mean I don't have a proxy.
Re:Spending 3 months investigating a 7-year old bug and fixi... by _rm on Saturday June 22, 2024 @08:16AM (#40758541)
How does violent agree/disagree work? Like after you conclude you agree/disagree to this internet text, do you then proceed to scream out on your balcony that which you agree with / smash up your apartment in rage, respectively?
Re:Spending 3 months investigating a 7-year old bug and fixi... by chrismorgan on Saturday June 22, 2024 @09:29AM (#40759005)
> Think about what a negative force multiplier can do for an org.

Negative force multipliers are easily remedied: just make sure you have an even number of them.

Re:Spending 3 months investigating a 7-year old bug and fixi... by atherton33 on Saturday June 22, 2024 @11:16AM (#40759663)
This totally happened on my first team.

We had a guy who would argue about everything that knew the CTO so we had to tolerate him.

Then we hired a second one and they just argued with each other all the time and the rest of the team could finally make progress.

It was awesome.

Re:Spending 3 months investigating a 7-year old bug and fixi... by bravetraveler on Monday June 24, 2024 @02:29AM (#40773055)
I have a feeling I was hired to be this second guy and I really just want to hang up my gloves, man
Re:Spending 3 months investigating a 7-year old bug and fixi... by atherton33 on Monday June 24, 2024 @02:51PM (#40779406)
Thank you for your service
Re:Spending 3 months investigating a 7-year old bug and fixi... by _rm on Saturday June 22, 2024 @08:29AM (#40758628)
It's true, not "laughably false". I've seen with my own eyes the most effective developer in a company being paid in the bottom quartile, as well as a vice versa case.

In the former case, we basically had to demand management raise his salary to the low end of his market value, over the cause of six months, until they finally gave in. It was just so disgusting to us we couldn't let it go.

The reason comes down to a skill bias - it's a different skill set to navigate other people into getting yourself a good salary, versus navigating the ins and outs of coding. The skills don't overlap, so time spent on one detracts from another.

In the end he finally got the message we kept ramming in to his head, applied to work at a brand-name tech company, and instantly more than doubled his salary. He could've done so years earlier.

This stuff is the norm. I've been a manager having eyes on salaries while also having eyes on people's performance (although unfortunately not much of a lever on the former), and rest assured it is often a very jarring experience. Like "that person should be let go immediately / that person should job hop immediately".

Re:Spending 3 months investigating a 7-year old bug and fixi... by stavros on Saturday June 22, 2024 @08:56AM (#40758810)
> instantly more than doubled his salary. He could've done so years earlier.

So it's not true, then?

The GP claims this is universally true. All I need to do is post a counterexample, and I did. Yes, there are shitty companies that try to keep salaries as low as possible, not realizing that that will lose them their best people. Don't work for those!

Re:Spending 3 months investigating a 7-year old bug and fixi... by vaylian on Saturday June 22, 2024 @08:52AM (#40758785)
> This is laughably false. The highly-paid, experienced seniors produce so much more value than juniors that it's not even in the same ballpark. It's also usually the kind of value that juniors don't even notice, because it's not measured in lines of code.

This particular case sounds like someone got incorrectly hired as a junior. Maybe they didn't have enough "real world" corporate experience and that is why they weren't offered a senior position?

Re:Spending 3 months investigating a 7-year old bug and fixi... by mulmen on Saturday June 22, 2024 @01:06PM (#40760470)
I was fresh out of college. But it’s not like that was an isolated incident or that other juniors don’t also have good ideas.