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Re:Boeing and Airbus may have used 'counterfeit' titanium in... by JumpCrisscross on Friday June 14, 2024 @03:56PM (#40684430)
> FAA has their hands full investigating problems _after_ they become problems

The FAA is constantly auditing, certifying and testing airmen, airplanes and plants. They have their hands full. But it's totally incorrect to say they're an ex post facto investigations agency.

Re:Boeing and Airbus may have used 'counterfeit' titanium in... by dsr_ on Friday June 14, 2024 @04:10PM (#40684590)
Right, that's the NTSB.
Re:Boeing and Airbus may have used 'counterfeit' titanium in... by nucleardog on Friday June 14, 2024 @04:48PM (#40684957)
> The FAA is constantly auditing, certifying and testing airmen, airplanes and plants.

Are they?

Much of the work that would be done to inspect and certify the planes being manufactured was outsourced to the manufacturers to increase efficiency.

They build their planes, inspect their planes, inspect and approve modifications and major repairs to their planes, and issue their own airworthiness certificates for their planes.

For a long while, the FAA was barely even involved in rubber stamping whoever Boeing et al appointed as FAA inspectors at their plants, never mind inspecting and certifying the planes themselves—in 2016 the Transportation Department said more than 85% of the tasks associated with certification were delegated from the FAA to the manufacturer’s own inspectors. By 2018, the FAA said that Boeing was handling 96% of the certification process.

There were some reforms around 2021 (737 MAX crashes were 2018 and 2019), but they were mostly focused on improving the self inspection program, not solving the fundamental problem of having companies certify their own work.

> But it's totally incorrect to say they're an ex post facto investigations agency.

While the inspections and certifications have been delegated by the FAA and _technically_ are still done in the name of the FAA, the reality certainly looks much more like the FAA proper is only involved _after_ significant safety issues.

I really don’t think it’s quite as clear cut as you make it out to be.

Re:Boeing and Airbus may have used 'counterfeit' titanium in... by 1jbdg on Friday June 14, 2024 @06:40PM (#40685829)
Seems like there is a lot of criticism of the FAA while ignoring real time cuts to their budget. Looking at 2005 they had 14bn, 22.5bn in today’s money. Last years budget was 18.5bn.

I am sure there is waste and opportunities for improvement but… that ignores the significant increase in flights, new planes etc. that has ballooned much faster than the crude time value of money calc above. Criticising them for doing less with, umm, less seems a bit rich. Especially as others (not necessarily you in this comment) then use that a reason for more cuts to agencies.

Re:Boeing and Airbus may have used 'counterfeit' titanium in... by brookst on Friday June 14, 2024 @08:00PM (#40686323)
We should separate two propositions: 1) whether or not the operations of the agency are too weighted toward ex post facto investigations and therefore, and 2) whether or not the people involved are competent and doing they best they can

It’s perfectly possible that the FAA has correctly optimized for the constraints they are under and the FAA is not sufficiently effective at delivering its charter.

Re:Boeing and Airbus may have used 'counterfeit' titanium in... by p_l on Saturday June 15, 2024 @06:35AM (#40688837)
The outsourcing of some routine operations to manufacturers was a presidential mandate during Bush Jr. administration, to make aviation business more "agile" or something /s
Re:Boeing and Airbus may have used 'counterfeit' titanium in... by nucleardog on Thursday June 20, 2024 @12:51AM (#40735029)
> Seems like there is a lot of criticism of the FAA while ignoring real time cuts to their budget.

Certainly wasn’t my intention! I don’t _think_ I said anything in there that was assigning blame to the FAA, merely pointing out that in practice they are no longer actively preventing issues.

I know their overall budget has been decreased and there are sources implying that’s the cause of the failures, but I couldn’t (on my phone, to be fair) find any good source comparing the portion of their budget that went to these programs specifically over time. So I chose to stick to what I could source and mostly let people draw their own conclusions.

For instance, while I have Thoughts(TM) I left it to the reader to take a wild fuckin’ guess which political party controlled the presidency, house, and senate in the years we decided outsourced the regulatory role of the FAA to those they regulate.

Re:Boeing and Airbus may have used 'counterfeit' titanium in... by dgoodell on Friday June 14, 2024 @09:09PM (#40686672)
I think the FAA generally performs audits, not inspections.

They usually make sure the paperwork is in order. Less likely that they make sure the paperwork is actually correct, and vastly less likely that they make sure that the actual things happening in the shop are correctly done.

I worked in an FAA repair station that repaired commercial jet engine parts. We always got the same FAA inspector every year. We never seemed nervous when he would show up.

The only auditor that seemed to really be digging to find stuff was the GE financial auditor to make sure they were getting their repair royalties.

Oh and one time an auditor for an airline snuck in and stole one of his airline’s parts, or something like that. He was making the point that we had zero access control and literally anyone could just walk into the building.

They should really start testing the employees. It doesn’t matter what the paperwork says if the employees are incompetent.

Re:Boeing and Airbus may have used 'counterfeit' titanium in... by bitcharmer on Friday June 14, 2024 @05:19PM (#40685249)
Are you talking about the same FAA that allowed Boeing people to certify themselves?
Re:Boeing and Airbus may have used 'counterfeit' titanium in... by ironmagma on Friday June 14, 2024 @09:42PM (#40686832)
There is a concept of a “moral minimum” where having a regulation might produce worse work than if the regulation didn’t exist, because companies will frequently work up to the minimum required by law and no more.
Re:Boeing and Airbus may have used 'counterfeit' titanium in... by darby_nine on Friday June 14, 2024 @09:53PM (#40686879)
This strikes me as an extremely weak argument for removing regulation. Like yea that's a nice thought if you already believe in efficacy of private organizations, but on the other hand trust in any organization goes out the window the second a profit motivation is introduced.
Re:Boeing and Airbus may have used 'counterfeit' titanium in... by ironmagma on Friday June 14, 2024 @10:34PM (#40687065)
I’m not proposing deregulation. But it is possible to have bad regulations that don’t produce the desired outcome. Basically, you can’t just regulate by specifying every little detail. An analogy could be drawn to overfitting a system.
Re:Boeing and Airbus may have used 'counterfeit' titanium in... by inemesitaffia on Saturday June 15, 2024 @01:55AM (#40687784)
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