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Re:Indian Startup 3D Prints Rocket Engine in Just 72 Hours by ETH_start on Thursday June 13, 2024 @01:16PM (#40672182)
Driver control IS making the driver responsible, by definition. Tesla is legally required to put the driver in control.

This is a driver assist program. There is no way such a program, that is subordinate to the driver and depends on the driver being in control, can protect the driver from not doing their part, and driving.

Re:Indian Startup 3D Prints Rocket Engine in Just 72 Hours by sjsdaiuasgdia on Thursday June 13, 2024 @02:20PM (#40672844)
Shame about the "Full Self Driving" branding

They can put whatever disclaimers in the manual but their branding is giving a different message. It's a message Tesla wants the customer to hear: "sit back and relax, the car drives for you."

The branding does not communicate that the driver needs to be just as aware and engaged as they would be if they were driving on their own, and be ready to take control of the vehicle at any moment.

Compare this to GM's "Super Cruise" branding. The message I get from that is "cruise control, but better." Cruise control is a long established feature, drivers have plenty of experience with it, and they know that it is definitely not going to drive the car itself. They know they're still going to have to pay attention because the car is going to do some of the driving tasks but not all of them. The car is making no implicit or explicit claim that it will drive for you.

"Full Self Driving" and related features like "Summon" make implicit claims in how they're named and presented. The driver absolutely has responsibility but Tesla is trying to play both sides of the coin with their branding vs their actual liability.

Re:Indian Startup 3D Prints Rocket Engine in Just 72 Hours by ETH_start on Friday June 14, 2024 @04:27AM (#40678808)
What the name implies if interpreted without any context pales in comparison to the repeated and explicit instructions and warnings given to the driver that clarify that the driver should always be in control
Re:Indian Startup 3D Prints Rocket Engine in Just 72 Hours by sjsdaiuasgdia on Friday June 14, 2024 @08:28AM (#40680256)
There's a reason "it does what it says on the tin" is generally seen as a positive aspect of a product.

When a product's naming and branding is well aligned with its actual utility, it builds trust with the customer. The customer doesn't feel like the seller is trying to pull a fast one on them.

Tesla chose their branding direction and Elon chooses to make his "optimistic" predictions that have made it sound like true self driving is right around the corner for years. That people take this impression away is no fault of anyone but those that put the impression out there in the first place.

Re:Indian Startup 3D Prints Rocket Engine in Just 72 Hours by ETH_start on Friday June 14, 2024 @04:25PM (#40684738)
This is simply a mischaracterization of the situation. No one who drives a Tesla thinks that the driver assist features are intended to or capable of autonomous driving.

The naming, whatever you may think of it, is massively overrided by the strongly worded warnings and instructions that are abundantly and repeatedly displayed to the driver, that effectively and unambiguously convey to the driver that they must be attentive while using the driver assist features.

Re:Indian Startup 3D Prints Rocket Engine in Just 72 Hours by abduhl on Thursday June 13, 2024 @02:53PM (#40673199)
First, Tesla is not legally required to put the driver in control - they are free to indemnify the driver completely and shoulder all of the liability themselves.

Second, who do you think was ultimately the one at fault for the excessive radiation doses caused by the Therac-25 machines: the machine technician operating the machine or the machine manufacturer? If it isn't the technician then I don't understand your argument because you can just find/replace every instance of driver in your post with technician.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Therac-25

Re:Indian Startup 3D Prints Rocket Engine in Just 72 Hours by gridspy on Thursday June 13, 2024 @03:29PM (#40673584)
Therac-25 is more like a stuck accelerator pedal. The operator did not command the machine to deliver too much radiation, that happened outside their control.
Re:Indian Startup 3D Prints Rocket Engine in Just 72 Hours by abduhl on Thursday June 13, 2024 @03:50PM (#40673840)
And you think that a driver commands their Tesla to run into an object when they enable autopilot or FSD?
Re:Indian Startup 3D Prints Rocket Engine in Just 72 Hours by gridspy on Thursday June 13, 2024 @04:21PM (#40674249)
One is a failure to act as an agent - to control the car and make decisions. Another is a failure to even be a reliable tool - to do what the operator commands. Very different.

Creating Agents is a lot harder.

Re:Indian Startup 3D Prints Rocket Engine in Just 72 Hours by abduhl on Thursday June 13, 2024 @07:04PM (#40675867)
Coming up with new words and terms in order to escape the comparison smacks of This Time It’s Different. Therac-25 was an Agent for performing radiation therapy - it controlled the radiation machine and made decisions. Autopilot/FSD is supposed to be a tool for the driver and it fails to be a reliable tool by driving into things.

This Time It’s Not Different At All

Re:Indian Startup 3D Prints Rocket Engine in Just 72 Hours by ETH_start on Friday June 14, 2024 @04:34AM (#40678851)
Autopilot is NOT advertised as being able to drive perfectly on its own, and your disingenuous analogies won't change that.
Re:Indian Startup 3D Prints Rocket Engine in Just 72 Hours by gridspy on Saturday June 15, 2024 @06:01PM (#40693022)
Agent - Something that makes decisions and actions that are not pre-programmed or predictable. Humans are definitely agents. LLM (eg Chat-GPT) are not quite there yet (they don't take action on their own).

Tool - Pretty much everything humanity has made to date. It does a preprogrammed thing or provides mechanical advantage. But it does not act on novel decisions it is making.

The terms come from an AI safety expert that Lex Friedman interviewed recently. [1]

Tesla FSD is almost an agent, though it asks a human to be ready to take over at any time.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNr6gPelJ3E

Re:Indian Startup 3D Prints Rocket Engine in Just 72 Hours by ETH_start on Friday June 14, 2024 @04:32AM (#40678833)
Tesla is legally required to put the driver in control. They do not have permission to sell a self-driving vehicle for use on public roads.

Secondly, it is already established and disclosed that the driver assist cannot self-drive. This would be comparable to a Therac-25 machine being sold as being incapable of limiting radiation output, and then not limiting radiation output.

There is absolutely no other company in the world where a predictable and disclosed shortcoming of the driver assist combined with the failure of the driver to fulfill their responsibility to be in control, would be blamed on the driver assist program.

Both Musk and Tesla are far from perfect, but the lengths that people go to to attack them is obviously agenda-driven and a result of emotions.