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Re:Everything About Mars Is the Worst (2017) by ben_w on Monday June 10, 2024 @04:42AM (#40631455)
Broadly I agree about Mars vs the moon.

Two wrinkles, not really disagreements:

> Low gravity is a problem

It might be, we don't know. This ignorance is also a problem.

> Mars's atmosphere is the worst of both worlds. It's of absolutely no use to build a breathable atmosphere.

Not directly, but it does mean (1) leaks can be represurised from outside, and (2) is a source of carbon, useful for plants and ISRU fuel manufacturing.

The fuel point is useful for any initial colonisation creation, but by the time we seriously consider a million people we should be able to build a mass driver… which works better on the airless moon than the thin atmosphere of Mars.

> I firmly believe humanity's future is in orbitals (aka an incremental Dyson Swarm). This approach has so much more going for it, except perhaps the added protection of living deep underground on a planet or Moon.

I understand the appeal, but I strongly suspect they only seem good due to the failure modes having not yet been deeply investigated.

Re:Everything About Mars Is the Worst (2017) by me_me_me on Monday June 10, 2024 @05:41AM (#40631761)
>> Low gravity is a problem

>It might be, we don't know. This ignorance is also a problem.

We did a study of prolonged stay on ISS - lower bone density, muscle loss, problems with eyes.

Our bodies evolved and adapted to live in 9.8m/s2 its not a leap of faith to think there will be issues in 3.7

Re:Everything About Mars Is the Worst (2017) by jgord on Monday June 10, 2024 @06:48AM (#40632131)
I t actually seems strange that the next 'step' isnt a spinning space science station, with simulated gravity.

Is there an obvious reason this would not work ?

Re:Everything About Mars Is the Worst (2017) by ben_w on Monday June 10, 2024 @08:11AM (#40632716)
> Is there an obvious reason this would not work ?

Nah, it's fine.

It's just big and expensive and we've already got gravity under our feet, so it's a very expensive way to remove one of the few reasons to do stuff in space in the first place.

We'll get around to it at some point, for sure. Just no hurry.

Re:Everything About Mars Is the Worst (2017) by arrowsmith on Monday June 10, 2024 @07:07AM (#40632246)
Wouldn't it have to spin really fast to get workable "gravity" on board? Then if it's spinning really fast, how do people get on or off?
Re:Everything About Mars Is the Worst (2017) by vessenes on Monday June 10, 2024 @07:23AM (#40632373)
If the loop is large, you don’t have to move too fast. Fairground rides spin fast enough to exceed 1g with little kids in them, and those rides are usually not wider than 10m, often less. Speed here is distance around the circumference, so twice the radius, half the turning speed.

I don’t have the numbers in front of me, but generally it’s considered that the issue is more that if you’re standing on a spinning cylinder, you might have weird balance issues due to speed differences between head and feet. Also, you have to remember you don’t have gravity, so as you intuit, entry and exit are trickier.

Two broad ideas for entry/exit: do it at the center where the physical position is stable, then “spin up” some how, or alternately get up to external speed and lock on to something that you then elevator through the surface.

Re:Everything About Mars Is the Worst (2017) by gampleman on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @03:14AM (#40643474)
Take a really long cable, put a suitable weighted asteroid on the other end, then spin the whole thing up. As long as the cable holds, you have a decent amount of centrifugal force without needing a particularly large habitat.
Re:Everything About Mars Is the Worst (2017) by me_me_me on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @06:49AM (#40644724)
I love the prospect :D

If cable holds you have gravity, if it fails you risk being slingshot into deep space

Re:Everything About Mars Is the Worst (2017) by ben_w on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @07:18AM (#40644918)
The usual design for these things have very low surface speeds, so you're not likely to go off into the deep even if it fails, as you're going to be pretty close to your prior combined orbit even without thrust, and the Δv needed to get back will be tiny.

But also, the forces are never more than the apparent gravity times the mass, so when someone does finally end up experiencing this, it will be part of a larger pattern of bad maintenance and/or engineering that likely has other things going wrong at the same time.

Re:Everything About Mars Is the Worst (2017) by me_me_me on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @08:54AM (#40645667)
I was only joking, there is no way this would be singular cable without a fallback safety.
Re:Everything About Mars Is the Worst (2017) by vessenes on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @08:42AM (#40645558)
Neal Stephenson suggested having two habitats with hooks so they’d spin against each-other. Then you could have fun and climb up to see your neighbors.
Re:Everything About Mars Is the Worst (2017) by admissionsguy on Monday June 10, 2024 @07:20AM (#40632343)
Through the middle
Re:Everything About Mars Is the Worst (2017) by me_me_me on Monday June 10, 2024 @08:48AM (#40633013)
you get off by running in the opposite direction and jump :D

I am only slightly exaggerating

Re:Everything About Mars Is the Worst (2017) by jgord on Monday June 10, 2024 @07:52PM (#40640686)
Was assuming they do a kind of ferris wheel with center and 3 or 4 spokes to start, maybe 200m diameter, and gradually fill out the rim with modular units maintaining balance, and center of mass at central dock ?
Re:Everything About Mars Is the Worst (2017) by ben_w on Monday June 10, 2024 @05:57AM (#40631864)
> We did a study of prolonged stay on ISS - lower bone density, muscle loss, problems with eyes

Indeed, but the ISS is also zero gee.

> its not a leap of faith to think there will be issues in 3.7

I'm not suggesting it requires a leap of faith, merely that it is currently untested. Until we try, either hypothesis is plausible.