News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:You Can Thank Private Equity for That Enormous Doctor's Bill by ed_elliott_asc on Thursday May 30, 2024 @08:58AM (#40523119)
Anytime the finance industry get involved and sell tailored loans then prices rise astronomically.

Housing? Yep mortgages, people can rarely afford a house without a large mortgage

Cars? Yep, most cars are bought on finance, people couldn’t buy new cars without the finance.

Health? In the us, insurance companies provide the finance.

I really wish society would have stopped this in its tracks.

Re:You Can Thank Private Equity for That Enormous Doctor's Bill by lr4444lr on Thursday May 30, 2024 @09:13AM (#40523280)
Mortgages are quite old. The rapid relative unaffordability of houses relative to median household income is fairly new. I suspect other factors are at play.
Re:You Can Thank Private Equity for That Enormous Doctor's Bill by ClumsyPilot on Thursday May 30, 2024 @11:16AM (#40524738)
UK has reliable economic data for hundreds of years, housing is the most unaffordable it has been relative to income since the times of the Plague
Re:You Can Thank Private Equity for That Enormous Doctor's Bill by dartos on Thursday May 30, 2024 @09:22AM (#40523400)
Yeah, I think there are a lot of complex factors that’s causing the housing problems.

Private equity, sure, but also the inflated cost of construction materials, realtor and land lord collusion, automated rent fixing, incentives for landlords to keep empty units rather than budge on rent.

It’s a big mess

Re:You Can Thank Private Equity for That Enormous Doctor's Bill by axus on Thursday May 30, 2024 @09:09AM (#40523242)
Well in theory the inflated prices should then encourage more supply of these things; more housing/cars/healthcare would be good. Unnecessary limits on the supply and barriers to competition let the prices inflate away from equilibrium.
Re:You Can Thank Private Equity for That Enormous Doctor's Bill by presentation on Thursday May 30, 2024 @09:14AM (#40523300)
The reasons for a lack of supply aren’t for lack of funding, so that points to the real problems.
Re:You Can Thank Private Equity for That Enormous Doctor's Bill by pyuser583 on Thursday May 30, 2024 @09:29AM (#40523499)
Supply creates demand.
Re:You Can Thank Private Equity for That Enormous Doctor's Bill by noitpmeder on Thursday May 30, 2024 @09:42AM (#40523621)
Forgive me, but I fail to see how the supply of quality medical care crates a demand for it.
Re:You Can Thank Private Equity for That Enormous Doctor's Bill by bluGill on Thursday May 30, 2024 @10:43AM (#40524364)
If you put you in a time machine to 1860 ago you would be a fool to go to your local doctor (this was before doctors got scientific, or did basic things like wash their hands - as a result people who went to the doctor had worse results than people who didn't). Now that we have quality medical care people who go to the doctor have better results than people who do not and so that creates demand of people who want a better life. The people in 1860 (and before) would love to have access to the type of medical care we have today.
Re:You Can Thank Private Equity for That Enormous Doctor's Bill by GartzenDeHaes on Thursday May 30, 2024 @10:03AM (#40523860)
By diagnosing more things, performing more procedures, and prescribing more pharmaceuticals. The opioid crisis, for example.
Re:You Can Thank Private Equity for That Enormous Doctor's Bill by pyuser583 on Thursday May 30, 2024 @01:09PM (#40526111)
Medical care keeps people alive longer. Living people require medical care, while corpses do not.

I know lots of people who would be dead without medical care.

Instead they are making lots of doctors appointments, and buying lots of drugs.

Re:You Can Thank Private Equity for That Enormous Doctor's Bill by bko on Thursday May 30, 2024 @09:01AM (#40523159)
A mortgage and car loan is credit (borrow money). Overall it's a net good for consuners IMO because I can't afford to buy a house cash and rates are artificially low for mortgages bc most are guaranteed by Fannie Freddie. Even private mortgages are competitive. You can borrow money for 30 years, non recourse, no prepayment penalty and get 4:1 leverage and the rate you pay is a few points higher than the government pays? Insanely good value.

What credit do insurance companies provide? You pay them and they pay the doctor based on some negotiated rate. They don't front you the money and you have to pay them back.

What are you talking about?

Re:You Can Thank Private Equity for That Enormous Doctor's Bill by bradleyjg on Thursday May 30, 2024 @09:03AM (#40523173)
Eh, don’t think this is the strongest argument. If you plot housing, healthcare, and cars on a chart in real term dollars since, say 1980, cars are going show way way less real growth.
Re:You Can Thank Private Equity for That Enormous Doctor's Bill by adolph on Thursday May 30, 2024 @09:27AM (#40523458)
Arnold Kling:

The New Commanding Heights are education and health care, which are rapidly expanding sectors where credentials and regulation are important sources of rents.

http://www.arnoldkling.com/blog/klassic-klingisms/

In Marxian economics, the "commanding heights of the economy" are certain strategically important economic sectors.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commanding_heights_of_the_econ...

Re:You Can Thank Private Equity for That Enormous Doctor's Bill by delfinom on Thursday May 30, 2024 @09:01AM (#40523156)
>Housing? Yep mortgages, people can rarely afford a house without a large mortgage

Bad example, mortgages keep jumping because property values keep increasing. Property values keep increasing because demand is exceeding supply. As more people can access mortgages due to lower rates, the demand shoots up and so does the property value which leads to a race to the top (bottom). Lol

>Cars? Yep, most cars are bought on finance, people couldn’t buy new cars without the finance.

Yea here we don't have a real lack of car supply. People are financing based on _wants_ rather than needs.

Re:You Can Thank Private Equity for That Enormous Doctor's Bill by yterdy on Thursday May 30, 2024 @11:40AM (#40524999)
>Property values keep increasing because demand is exceeding supply.

Not quite. Property values keep increasing because the monetary supply keeps increasing, one effect of which is that large property owners can corner markets by buying up properties and warehousing them until they see the prices they want to sell for. This appears as a lack of supply (not enough houses) when it's really a lack of market forces forcing sales (not enough houses on the market). The remedies to these two situations are very different.

Re:You Can Thank Private Equity for That Enormous Doctor's Bill by mandmandam on Thursday May 30, 2024 @09:31AM (#40523515)
I don't mind people not understanding how the finance industry has fucked up housing all over the Western world. It's complicated.

But the immediate illiterate defenses in the short time this comment has been posted are wild, if sadly expected.

Yes, for the love of all that's holy: private equity has fucked up housing across the planet. Learn about it a little before insisting otherwise!

This isn't simple supply and demand, nor is it all a big mystery. It's certainly not a 'bad example' of the finance industry fucking up a life essential to profit off it at our expense; it's a core, fundamental example.

People have done huge amounts of work exposing these shenanigans. All the information needed to educate yourselves is a few clicks away. Here's some titles to get you started:

"Homewreckers: How a Gang of Wall Street Kingpins, Hedge Fund Magnates, Crooked Banks, and Vulture Capitalists Suckered Millions Out of Their Homes and Demolished the American Dream" by Aaron Glantz

"Private Equity at Work: When Wall Street Manages Main Street" by Eileen Appelbaum and Rosemary Batt

"The New Urban Crisis: How Our Cities Are Increasing Inequality, Deepening Segregation, and Failing the Middle Class – and What We Can Do About It" by Richard Florida

Stop letting the industry off the hook for the unimaginable damage they've inflicted on the heart of society. Step one: gtfo out of denial.

Re:You Can Thank Private Equity for That Enormous Doctor's Bill by robertlagrant on Thursday May 30, 2024 @09:02AM (#40523164)
> Housing? Yep mortgages, people can rarely afford a house without a large mortgage

What does this mean? Are you saying mortgages are recent? Prices are a function of supply and demand, not of access to capital.

> I really wish society would have stopped this in its tracks

People didn't own houses before. They were serfs or renters. Mortgages meant people could access a lifetime of money now and afford a house.

Re:You Can Thank Private Equity for That Enormous Doctor's Bill by torstenvl on Thursday May 30, 2024 @09:07AM (#40523213)
> Prices are a function of supply and demand

Demand for living and having somewhere to live are inelastic. As a result, these markets are especially prone to distortionary effects caused by monopolies, price fixing, and price non-transparency.

Re:You Can Thank Private Equity for That Enormous Doctor's Bill by balderdash on Thursday May 30, 2024 @09:26AM (#40523453)
What are the monopolies, price fixing, and price non transparency in housing?
Re:You Can Thank Private Equity for That Enormous Doctor's Bill by programjames on Thursday May 30, 2024 @10:34AM (#40524247)
In many areas, all landlords use one of two or three management companies, which use the same pricing software. I do think prices are usually pretty transparent though.
Re:You Can Thank Private Equity for That Enormous Doctor's Bill by robertlagrant on Thursday May 30, 2024 @10:54AM (#40524510)
What's this got to do with mortgages?
Re:You Can Thank Private Equity for That Enormous Doctor's Bill by have_faith on Thursday May 30, 2024 @09:17AM (#40523333)
> not of access to capital

I think I get what you mean with this, but I'm not sure I follow it completely.

Banks are able to extend large amounts of credit that are backed by a small percentage of the credit offered. People are generally bad with money and will take what the bank offers them if they think they can afford the monthly figure. The bank and it's lending practices therefore seem to have an (indirect?) influence on how much money someone has to pay for a house, and therefore what houses sell for in the market. Whether all this does is reveal a houses true value in the market, as opposed to artificially increasing it, I'm not sure.

Re:You Can Thank Private Equity for That Enormous Doctor's Bill by robertlagrant on Thursday May 30, 2024 @11:59AM (#40525220)
I probably agree with most of this, and definitely with your thoughtful last sentence, but the context is that the existence of mortgages has driven up house prices. I think this is a silly claim, because while almost no one being able to buy a house would lower house prices, it would do so in a net negative one.
Re:You Can Thank Private Equity for That Enormous Doctor's Bill by have_faith on Friday May 31, 2024 @07:02AM (#40533498)
It sounds like there's two separate dimensions to this, price, and positive / negative outcome.

It seems like it's possible for a banks mortgage lending practices to both positively increase access to mortgages while at the same time making houses more expensive. At first I think this is counter intuitive, but I think there's a logic to it. Whether this is a good tradeoff, is separate to whether the loaning itself increases house prices.

Re:You Can Thank Private Equity for That Enormous Doctor's Bill by CuriouslyC on Thursday May 30, 2024 @09:08AM (#40523230)
I think the main point to take from OP is that houses have gotten much more expensive because builders presuppose the existence of a pool of people who can afford them given mortgages. If mortgages weren't a thing a lot of building code wouldn't exist and houses would be built smaller and simpler because otherwise they wouldn't sell.
Re:You Can Thank Private Equity for That Enormous Doctor's Bill by graemep on Thursday May 30, 2024 @09:57AM (#40523790)
> Prices are a function of supply and demand, not of access to capital.

That is simply wrong.

The demand curve is the relationship between quantity bought and price. It definitely shifts with how much money people have, so in the case of houses depends entirely on access to capital.

Re:You Can Thank Private Equity for That Enormous Doctor's Bill by adolph on Thursday May 30, 2024 @09:12AM (#40523265)
> Prices are a function of supply and demand, not of access to capital.

If a buyer cannot access capital (money), then no amount of demand will facilitate the exchange and the seller might supply a different buyer who has capital for a lower price.

Re:You Can Thank Private Equity for That Enormous Doctor's Bill by robertlagrant on Thursday May 30, 2024 @10:57AM (#40524533)
So in context of mortgages being bad, you're saying that house prices would be lower if only people who have the money saved up or inherited to buy them are bidding on houses? Wouldn't that make supply much lower?
Re:You Can Thank Private Equity for That Enormous Doctor's Bill by adolph on Thursday May 30, 2024 @06:39PM (#40529545)
If the mortgage did not exist, and a significant portion of buyers (or the sellers) did not have access to same/similar amounts of capital, many people would probably restructure their financial lives in order to facilitate house buying without a mortgage. The same/similar number of people need housing and move, upsize or downsize, so the nature of the supply might change but probably not supply in general.

If the mortgage were to suddenly disappear I would expect the housing market to have a similar contraction as in the recent recession when poorly understood risks from mortgage backed securities caused a decrease in mortgage availability.

Re:You Can Thank Private Equity for That Enormous Doctor's Bill by robertlagrant on Friday May 31, 2024 @03:58AM (#40532498)
But how much would it contract when you can rent the properties out? Rental and purchase prices are linked - the price floor of a house is related to how much you can rent it out for if you sold it to a landlord (or kept it yourself to rent to people). People would stop buying houses and start renting. The demand for renting would go up, and for buying would go down.
Re:You Can Thank Private Equity for That Enormous Doctor's Bill by floor2 on Thursday May 30, 2024 @09:11AM (#40523258)
> Prices are a function of supply and demand, not of access to capital.

And easy access to debt massively shifts the equilibrium point on the supply/demand curves.

Cars, houses, college, even cell phones or furniture can have far higher market prices when people switch from paying full-price in cash at time of purchase to making payments over months or years.

Re:You Can Thank Private Equity for That Enormous Doctor's Bill by sofixa on Thursday May 30, 2024 @09:32AM (#40523529)
> What does this mean? Are you saying mortgages are recent? Prices are a function of supply and demand, not of access to capital.

Access to capital influences how much money can be spent to satisfy a demand.

Re:You Can Thank Private Equity for That Enormous Doctor's Bill by robertlagrant on Thursday May 30, 2024 @10:56AM (#40524527)
How is this related to mortgages being bad?
Re:You Can Thank Private Equity for That Enormous Doctor's Bill by sofixa on Thursday May 30, 2024 @01:09PM (#40526122)
It is not, it's about "prices are about supply and demand" being put as something entirely independent of access to capital.