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Re:Sal Khan is pioneering innovation in education again by ben_w on Wednesday May 22, 2024 @10:55AM (#40441792)
> I don't think they should allow use of AI during tests because yeah, it'd just do all the work for them and they wouldn't learn anything, but I absolutely think there's value in being able to use it as a 24/7 instant tutor, particularly since ChatGPT can be coerced into explaining things in basically any style that you'd like.

For any test where there's an AI good enough to cheat with and cheap enough students can afford it, the test itself is no longer important — it is as pointless as testing how well students can use fountain pens when everyone uses a keyboard for actual work. Or how well they can play chess.

I'm not sure the exact shape of what each model can and can't do, but I am confident that this means they're never be an important "cheating" risk, not even when they're technically capable of it.

Re:Sal Khan is pioneering innovation in education again by miki123211 on Wednesday May 22, 2024 @11:11AM (#40441981)
I used to agree with this point, but I actually changed my stance.

Once you hit a problem that an AI cannot solve, it's good to be at least aware of what's going on in the field. You don't necessarily have to remember every formula and every fact off the top of your head, but having an intuition on what facts and formulas there are and where they can be used is immensely helpful.

Imagine you're writing a program in an esoteric scripting language that Copilot doesn't understand, and you need to put a large array of events in order from oldest to newest. If you had to learn this sort of think before, you'll immediately have an intuition that this is called sorting, there are slow (n^2) sorting algorithms and faster (n log n) sorting algorithms and you want the latter, and that quicksort is probably a good candidate to start with. You don't necessarily have to be able to write quicksort by hand, you can look up an implementation online and port it to your weird proprietary language, but the intuition is important.

Re:Sal Khan is pioneering innovation in education again by ben_w on Wednesday May 22, 2024 @11:21AM (#40442108)
Hmm.

That sounds like a different thing than I'm saying, and I agree with what I think you're saying.

So, if an AI can answer "what's a fast sort function" with "quicksort, here's some pseudocode: …", that's a related but different question to "write quicksort in [this brand new language you've never encountered before]".

Is like how AI won't take our jobs, but it will take over for each individual task that our jobs are made from.

Re:Sal Khan is pioneering innovation in education again by tombert on Wednesday May 22, 2024 @10:58AM (#40441844)
Well, no, I absolutely and fundamentally disagree with that.

We didn't just stop teaching children how to read the second that text-to-speech stuff came about, and we didn't stop teaching basic arithmetic the second that calculators were invented, and we didn't stop teaching algebra the second that Wolfram Alpha was released.

There is value in learning the fundamentals of things. If you never actually learn algebra, then it becomes effectively impossible to do the more advanced stuff.

Re:Sal Khan is pioneering innovation in education again by ben_w on Wednesday May 22, 2024 @11:13AM (#40442019)
> We didn't just stop teaching children how to read the second that text-to-speech stuff came about

TTS from visual input isn't good enough to be an example of that yet. It's good, but not that good.

> we didn't stop teaching basic arithmetic the second that calculators were invented and we didn't stop teaching algebra the second that Wolfram Alpha was released.

And yet, my A-level exams 22 years ago required me to have a graphic calculator.

Re:Sal Khan is pioneering innovation in education again by tombert on Wednesday May 22, 2024 @11:22AM (#40442116)
> TTS from visual input isn't good enough to be an example of that yet. It's good, but not that good.

Even if TTS were absolutely perfect, then I'd still maintain my point.

> And yet, my A-level exams 22 years ago required me to have a graphic calculator.

Doesn't that sort of prove my point? Calculators existed and were obviously useful, but they didn't just stop teaching you algebra, despite knowing you had a calculator.

Re:Sal Khan is pioneering innovation in education again by ben_w on Wednesday May 22, 2024 @11:31AM (#40442223)
> Doesn't that sort of prove my point?

Only if you missed mine about how it is no longer cheating to use one.

Re:Sal Khan is pioneering innovation in education again by tombert on Wednesday May 22, 2024 @11:39AM (#40442314)
I see, so you're claiming that if AI can be utilized to solve the problem, and it's determined to be useful, then it should be allowed to be on a test as a result, in the same way that a graphing calculator is no longer considered cheating?

I think the disagreement I have is that I think part of the reason calculators are allowed on calculus tests is because they're actually not that useful for a lot of what they teach you in calculus. I had a graphing calculator in my math and physics classes in high school, but most of my work was still done with a pen and paper. The calculator was of course useful for the arithmetic stuff, and it could be useful to sanity-check your work (e.g. to see if the roots you calculated were correct), but I still had to do most of the actual calculus by hand.

Even when I got a calculator with a CAS built in (HP 50G), I would still have to do most of the algebra by hand, and honestly if my teachers had known that my calculator had a CAS I suspect they wouldn't have allowed me to use it to begin with.

Re:Sal Khan is pioneering innovation in education again by llm_trw on Wednesday May 22, 2024 @10:59AM (#40441849)
Fountain pens are easier to use than most ball point pens. If you need to think deeply about a problem there are few better things than a binder of a3 paper and a fountain pen to think.

That said the uselessness of education is the point. It's a signal that you're willing to do pointless work for future rewards. We may as well replace it with counting beans and it would be just as effective.

Re:Sal Khan is pioneering innovation in education again by ben_w on Wednesday May 22, 2024 @11:25AM (#40442153)
As a southpaw, the last thing I want to do is touch a fountain pen.

Well, unless I have another go at learning Arabic…