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Re:New capacitor with 19-times energy density by kube-system on Wednesday May 08, 2024 @12:17PM (#40299810)
> we were able to achieve an energy density of 191.7 joules per cubic centimeter

Which is still quite a bit lower than

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium-ion_battery

> 900–2,490 J/cm3

And I don't see anything here about self-discharge rates, which are a big limitation for using capacitors for energy storage over any period of time. Does anyone know if the full study has that information?

Re:New capacitor with 19-times energy density by datameta on Wednesday May 08, 2024 @12:42PM (#40300142)
Does it make sense to compare a capacitor to a battery? It is a bit like comparing SRAM to Flash imo.

I think some of the areas of a car to be potentially improved with this kind of advancement are: regen braking efficiency, size and weight, battery health.

Re:New capacitor with 19-times energy density by oliwarner on Wednesday May 08, 2024 @02:12PM (#40301245)
Does it make sense to compare them as the lines between them blur? Absolutely! That's the best time to compare.

And the same is true for DRAM and flash. There have been several moments in time when the tables have tilted where battery backed RAM PCI cards have made sense, or where sticking persistent Optane chips in high speed DRAM slots has.

Re:New capacitor with 19-times energy density by datameta on Wednesday May 08, 2024 @05:06PM (#40302706)
Indeed, DRAM and Flash have experienced a convergence - in server and mainframe land there is storage-class memory that functions as a cache or LUT between DRAM and Flash.

I believe we are a bit farther from a true hybrid capacitor. As for true hybrid memory I believe the likeliest solution for embedded applications will be one of the different analog in-memory compute techniques currently being iterated on.

Re:New capacitor with 19-times energy density by NullifyNAN on Wednesday May 08, 2024 @03:52PM (#40302169)
Yes because ultimately the goal of capacitor research is to make it more similar to a battery in terms of storage.
Re:New capacitor with 19-times energy density by neuralRiot on Thursday May 09, 2024 @05:32PM (#40313169)
And battery research goal is to make them behave more capacitor-like, eventually they will cross their paths.
Re:New capacitor with 19-times energy density by atoav on Wednesday May 08, 2024 @12:40PM (#40300122)
The main use of capacitors in circuits (if we go by capacity) are bypass capacitors. These are essentially small buffers of electricity that can charge and discharge quickly when a jolt of power is needed downstream.

Without bypass capacitors every sudden draw of power would pull the supply voltage of the whole system down, especially if your power source (battery) can't react that quickly or has limited discharge rates.

Without having looked into the plans here, I'd expect a super-capacitor solution to look like this:

1. You charge your cars of super-capacitors super quickly at special charging spots and drive away

2. The stored charge is then partly used for driving, partly used to charge the cars actual battery and partly used to act as a bypass capacitor to smooth out the load for the battery

3. Eventually the capacitors are empty, but you had a short charging process that filled part of your batteries

Re:New capacitor with 19-times energy density by mlyle on Wednesday May 08, 2024 @12:57PM (#40300321)
I don't really think of bulk capacitance as bypass capacitance, but here the role is similar (on longer time scales).

Cars are unlikely to have huge supercapacitors useful for changing the charge much, too. (And there's not much point in moving power stored in a capacitor to be stored in a battery).

The main use of this is to provide short duration power, as you describe. That is, lithium batteries have great energy density but not as great power density or cycle life as capacitors. So a small amount of bulk capacitance can improve battery performance and reduce stresses on the battery.

This is more useful for short range vehicles like plug-in hybrids, because they have smaller packs. Larger vehicle packs tend to have plenty of power available, as a side effect of being designed to store tons of energy.

Re:New capacitor with 19-times energy density by LorenPechtel on Wednesday May 08, 2024 @04:15PM (#40302371)
Makes me wonder if there might be a viable hybrid with no battery, just a supercapacitor. It wouldn't allow you to reclaim energy off hills or the like, but give the advantage hybrids have in city driving without the downside of that battery pack that will wear out in time.
Re:New capacitor with 19-times energy density by adrianN on Thursday May 09, 2024 @01:04AM (#40305452)
Some diesel busses have a bank of capacitors that is charged when braking that can then run the onboard electricity for a while.
Re:New capacitor with 19-times energy density by CyberDildonics on Wednesday May 08, 2024 @01:00PM (#40300365)
If an EVs batteries aren't mostly full, the limitation is in the amount of power that can be pumped into them. There isn't really a reason to charge capacitors directly or in any special way.

Even for high discharge I'm skeptical, lithium titanate batteries are probably much better, their durability and extreme charging and discharge rates make them half way to capacitors already.

Re:New capacitor with 19-times energy density by ComputerGuru on Wednesday May 08, 2024 @02:10PM (#40301221)
> the limitation is in the amount of power that can be pumped into them

You could say that. You could also be more pedantic and say that this comes at the cost of some decrease in battery life (and efficiency) due to the resistance resulting in some amount of heat in order to facilitate this high-speed charging process.

But I don’t know if the ROI on improved battery life would be worth the complexity, size, weight, and cost of a two-stage charging process. As battery tech improves, that resistance continues to come down.

Re:New capacitor with 19-times energy density by CyberDildonics on Wednesday May 08, 2024 @05:10PM (#40302738)
this comes at the cost of some decrease in battery life

What does? I said the limitation is usually getting enough electricity to charge them fast. Most of the time EVs are not being charged as fast as they could be.

Re:New capacitor with 19-times energy density by crote on Thursday May 09, 2024 @11:49PM (#40315363)
Bypass capacitors aren't really used to prevent a whole-system voltage sag - they are there to deal with the effects of high-frequency signal switching.

The traces supplying power aren't theoretical, so they have a nonzero impedance. This means that when there is any change in power demand due to transistors switching, the trace will try to resist this change in supply current. An increased power demand leads to a very local voltage drop, a reduced power demand leads to a very local voltage spike.

Bypass capacitors are placed as close as possible to the individual chips to reduce the impedance between the capacitor and the chip. You even intentionally use smaller capacitors because the bigger ones have a higher impedance.

Re:New capacitor with 19-times energy density by aidenn0 on Wednesday May 08, 2024 @01:54PM (#40301038)
That's also much less than 19x what an EDLC can store. Picking a standard Maxwell part[1] I calculated 36 J/cm3, so it's more like 5x; still impressive, but comparing a lab result to a product isn't fair; there are EDLCs with much higher energy densities in the lab.

https://maxwell.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/3003348.2_3V-...

Re:New capacitor with 19-times energy density by mitthrowaway2 on Wednesday May 08, 2024 @01:01PM (#40300373)
I don't think the intent is to use the capacitor as a substitute for battery energy storage, but as a complement. I don't think these would be a good fit for EVs, but for supercharger stations maybe? Charge/discharge efficiency and cycle lifetime will probably be higher than a battery, and in stationary applications, cost matters more than weight or volume. Of course cost depends on production volume, which isn't something you can measure in the lab, so who knows.

It might also pair well with battery chemistries that are good for energy density but poor on power density, like lithium-sulfur or LFP.

Re:New capacitor with 19-times energy density by cogman10 on Thursday May 09, 2024 @02:10PM (#40311094)
For an EV, they could be useful in stopping/starting. Rather than having regen go to the battery you could first send it to a capacitor which then trickle charges the battery (reducing wear). And rather than pulling directly from the battery, you could pull from a capacitor first to get to cruising speed. That would allow the battery to slowly discharge into the capacitor rather than going directly into the motor at full force.

You'd play to capacitors high cycle life and fast charging/discharging capabilities rather than their density.

Re:New capacitor with 19-times energy density by _carbyau_ on Friday May 10, 2024 @01:53AM (#40315816)
Maybe it could be used in a similar fashion for the hybrids out there.
Re:New capacitor with 19-times energy density by choilive on Wednesday May 08, 2024 @12:44PM (#40300162)
Yep still much lower than Li-ion batteries but within punching distance for sure. I also don't think this is intended to compete with traditional battery tech as much as making it even better in applications where supercapacitors currently excel at.
Re:New capacitor with 19-times energy density by nick238 on Wednesday May 08, 2024 @12:55PM (#40300294)
The source article is Enhanced Energy Storage [...] Ferroelectric Ceramics via Domain Engineering https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10381779/

It seems like they didn't really look at leakage current, but did apply a 10 Hz sine wave to it for about a day (~1 million charge/discharge cycles) and it didn't degrade notably.

Re:New capacitor with 19-times energy density by ortusdux on Wednesday May 08, 2024 @12:48PM (#40300208)
I wonder what the comparison is in J/kg? I could see lithium & capacitor hybrid systems being viable in EVs. The cybertruck's battery housing is full of plenty of deadspace, and if these caps have 1/10th the energy density you could squeeze in an extra 10+kwh of storage. Caps typically have a much longer lifespan, so I could see them acting as a great buffer for the rapid charge/discharge of regen braking.
Re:New capacitor with 19-times energy density by skykooler on Wednesday May 08, 2024 @01:10PM (#40300463)
I recall following a project about 15 years ago where someone converted a car to electric using a lithium battery for range and a bank of ultracapacitors to increase peak power and handle the energy from regen. Here's the page on the project: https://www.metricmind.com/ac_honda/main2.htm
Re:New capacitor with 19-times energy density by ortusdux on Wednesday May 08, 2024 @01:35PM (#40300832)
Great link! It looks like the caps he used were ~ 3 J/cm³, so 1/65th the density of the ones in the article.
Re:New capacitor with 19-times energy density by CyberDildonics on Wednesday May 08, 2024 @12:43PM (#40300151)
a big limitation for using capacitors for energy storage over any period of time

Who is saying that's the point of this capacitor?

Re:New capacitor with 19-times energy density by kube-system on Wednesday May 08, 2024 @09:28PM (#40304373)
The first sentence in the article is:

> A new material structure could revolutionize energy storage by enabling the capacitors in electric vehicles or devices to store energy for much longer, scientists say.

Re:New capacitor with 19-times energy density by jcd000 on Thursday May 09, 2024 @03:08PM (#40311854)
I can think of many uses for a capacitor with close-to-battery energy density. The cap properties (endurance & high charge / discharge rates) are pretty useful in some applications.
Re:New capacitor with 19-times energy density by m463 on Thursday May 09, 2024 @06:44PM (#40313701)
I think this would complement batteries.

One big use would be ev road racing.

Cars on a track have high acceleration, followed by extreme braking.

If this energy could be buffered by a large capacitor, the main battery could just be slowly discharged to a capacitor to provide energy for the race. The capacitor would provide and absorb fluctuating energy to speed up and slow down.

I also imagine complex ev battery architecture could be simplified if the energy in and out doesn't have to be radically managed.

I see it somewhat like running an internal combustion engine at one efficient RPM instead of having to run at all RPMs and use a gearbox.

Re:New capacitor with 19-times energy density by throwaway14356 on Thursday May 09, 2024 @08:52PM (#40314485)
that last bit i find interesting. You not just get to run it at efficient rpm it can also be dramatically smaller and have better acceleration. It could even continue to run after reaching the destination (since you have an engine it might as wel do work for you)
Re:New capacitor with 19-times energy density by m463 on Thursday May 09, 2024 @11:43PM (#40315323)
I was using that as an analogy, but there's no reason you couldn't have a weird hybrid car with a generator, a capacitor and electric motors. No batteries.
Re:New capacitor with 19-times energy density by CRConrad on Sunday May 12, 2024 @07:18AM (#40333501)
No reason in principle, but for practical reason that probably will never become common. Seems more likely we'll get "hybrid EVs" with batteries and capacitors working together, capacitors acting as buffers for batteries. Until the technologies converge into a single thing that does both, but I'm guessing that'll take decades rather than years. (Then the only question that remains will be, will they be called batacitors or capatteries? :-)