It's no worse than CNNs take on iraq and weapons of mass destruction, or (to go to the ru-ukr war), all the "putin has 3 days of supplies left" articles from 2022, 2023 and this year.

You just prefer your own propaganda.

I don't think that "putin has 3 days of supplies left" propaganda is just as bad as the kind of genocidal propaganda pumped out by the Russian media, no, sorry.

Not all propaganda is born equal. Antisemitic propaganda pumped out by the Nazis in WW2 was absolutely worse than "keep calm and carry on" propaganda pumped out by the Brits during WW2. Hope that helps.

But if you truly believe that putin is losing due to propaganda, you'll go and fight a war you believe you'll win... and then die, because the media lied to you. How is this good for you?

I mean sure... you, as an outside observer want more "other" people to die for a cause you believe in, but for an individual it's better to know the truth and decide according to that, than to be mislead by lies and propaganda.

Ukraine seems pretty intent on continuing to fight, I'm not forcing them to do anything, indeed I have no power over Ukrainian policy whatsoever. If Ukraine wants to fight then I believe we should support them. Hope that helps.

> fight a war you believe you'll win... and then die

I can't imagine any sane person is going to blame the Ukrainian media for Russia invading Ukraine, killing Ukrainian soldiers and committing genocide in Ukraine. I imagine they would, you know, blame Russia itself. Lol.

Thanks for the hot takes though, amusing, if not also a little bit sad.

> Ukraine seems pretty intent on continuing to fight

Yeah, i saw the videos of men being kidnapped from the streets, and the articles about european countries trying to forcibly sending men (who managed to escape) back to ukraine, to die for zelensky. Once you're out of volounteers ready to fight, you're not "intent on" anything anymore, but are forcing young (and a bit less young) men to die for politics. And ukraine hasn't had any volounteers for quite a lot of time now.

> I can't imagine any sane person is going to blame the Ukrainian media for Russia invading Ukraine, killing Ukrainian soldiers and committing genocide in Ukraine. I imagine they would, you know, blame Russia itself. Lol.

Ukranian media can be a cause for uninformed men to die in a way, that they would never fight in, if they knew the truth.

Yeah that's why war sucks bro. People end up getting conscripted when the war is for the very existence of the country itself. It sucks.

So Russia should withdraw.

Anyway seethe more. And keep acting all shocked and outraged that countries produce propaganda during war time when they are attacked. Lol.

But if people prefer their own life to some lines on the map... why should we force them to fight? I mean.. shouldn't ukranian individuals have a choice? Are we really supporting forcefully sending them to die? Is this "democracy"? "western way of life"?

If you prefer lines on the map, why not help with the fighting, instead of being a keyboard warrior?

North Korea is a line on a map.

>why not help with the fighting

This is a really common refrain from paid Russian trolls. It means that someone cannot argue against an injust invasion unless they fight themselves - which is ridiculous. So you are either a troll, or just stupid. Based on the rest of your comments I'm certain you are a troll. What is really sick is that you claim to be concerned about Ukrainian lives when you are actively supporting their daily massacre.

You can argue all you want, but you shouldn't be able to force people to die for your arguments. And ukranian men don't want to die.

Instead of arguing, you come with the "paid troll" accusations and personal attacks.. come on.

It's one thing to argue about injustness (especially if you're from one of the coutries that is currently invading some other country, or recently has been, like syria or afghanistan.. like my country did), but you canot argue about ukranians having to die for whatever you consider to be right. If you support any kind of democracy, and if there is noone left who wants to volounteer and fight, the democractic opinion is already known (at least the opinion of those whose opinion should matter). If you believe that dying in this war is worth it, for whatever reason, you can replace a ukranian guy who doesn't believe that.

I'm not willing to fight for Ukraine but I am willing to support them. If my country was at risk of being ruled by the thugs in the Kremlin, I would fight for it and I would welcome support from anyone.

Your line of argument (idiotic though it is ) is used frequently by trolls because it is very effective at shutting down conversation. You can't threaten violence directly but you would if you could. You are supporting a regime that kills, rapes and kidnaps children (you will deny this because you are a paid troll but it's absolutely clear from your arguments that you do)

Anyway, you are clearly delighted to get more opportunities to repeat it so I will shut up now.

You've made it so deep into this discussion and now is when you pull out the "paid troll" comment? Speak directly and don't imply things you're not confident enough to say outright. And frankly, 99% of claims of paid trolls sound like conspiracy theories to my ears.

>If you prefer lines on the map, why not help with the fighting, instead of being a keyboard warrior?

If you are so desperate for Russia to win, why don't you go and join the Russian army and join a meat wave?

> shouldn't ukranian individuals have a choice

Conscription in its various forms is as old as warfare itself. I cannot believe you think Ukraine invented conscription lmao.

I'm not desparate for russia to win, I just support people to have a chance to not die for the lines on the map. It's not just ukraine forcing them to do so (and us helping them), but there are actual movements within EU to forcibly send the ones who escaped back.

If you want to fight russia, you're free to do so, but you shouldn't be able to force others to do so.

> Conscription in its various forms is as old as warfare itself. I cannot believe you think Ukraine invented conscription lmao.

Sure, and it's wrong and should be abolished. Aren't we the ones supporting democracy here? At least you're acting as if you are, as long as ukranian men have no choice but to die in a war you support more than them.

Nothing necessarily antidemocratic about conscription. Finland is a democracy and has conscription.

You need to focus your outrage on Russia for invading Ukraine

instead of Ukraine for defending itself.

Do you believe it's possible to support Ukraine, criticize and blame Russia for the conflict, and still think there's much to criticize about the Ukrainian response? It seems like you're not comfortable with that level of nuance, and you're being very disrespectful as a result.

Of course, but they very clearly support Russia, so that does not apply here.

They explicitly state that Ukraine should stop fighting, i.e., let Russia win.

They state The Independent and Russia Today are two equally trustworthy news sources. That is not serious.

Anyone who says we should support Ukraine is told that we should go and join the Ukrainian army, also ridiculous.

I do not respect such people, so I am being disrespectful, indeed. I do not care, either.

If you think I am being an arsehole, that's fine, you're probably right, but if you cannot see that the other guy is also at least as much of an arsehole as I am, then you presumably have very interesting opinions on the Russian attack on Ukraine, just like he does.

Conscription is undemocratic by design.

If the democratic majority wants to fight, you have more than enough volunteer soldiers to either win (or lose ~1/2 of your population...). If you can't get any volunteers any more, their opinion on if they want to fight or not is already known, even without a democratic referendum.

...at least if you only count the votes of people whose opinion actually matters here.

You need to focus your outrage on Russia for invading Ukraine

instead of Ukraine for defending itself.

What good will that do? 1 outrage = one prayer? Or whatever that faceook boomer meme was?

Now is the time to prevent forciful conscription in other countries, because our politicians are steering us towards war, and I don't want to die for them. If someone volunteers, sure, if not, then sit down and negotiate.

I don't live in neither russia not ukraine... my outrage went to my (small, eu) country occupying afghanistan and still having soldiers in syria. Sadly noone gave so much weapons and money to afghanistan/syria/libya/... to help them win the war.

What good does your seething on HN do?

My point is if you're going to rage about the war in Ukraine, you should probably rage and seethe about the invader, not criticise Ukraine for defending itself lmao.

If your only problem is that Ukraine has conscription, well so too does Russia, but you only criticise Ukraine, and repeat Russian imperialist/fascist talking points about defending Russians in Ukraine.. so it is very transparent where your sympathies really lie.