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Re:In praise of idleness – Bertrand Russell by wenc on Saturday May 04, 2024 @03:44PM (#40259831)
I read In Praise of Idleness when I was 13-14 because an older person recommended it to me. Although the essay was written in the 1935, he convinced me this was the future, and that it foretold what European life was going to be. And indeed, modern Western Europe lives this way -- where leisure is accorded importance, hard work is not the highest virtue, and citizens were free to create culture and invent new ideas. As evidence, he pointed to all the discoveries made by medieval monks and people with idle time to play with ideas, as opposed to the proletariat who worked but did not have the luxury to think higher thoughts. Idleness was the pre-condition for great ideas.

In a sense, this is the vision of UBI -- where basic needs were met, and people were free to self-actualize.

This is also the happy version of tenure in academia -- where you didn't have to worry about "publish or perish" but instead you get to work on really important ideas without showing results for years (multi year grants or being in a place like the IAS helps).

Google in some ways used to operate like this before the current pivot -- many googlers lived a life of "resting and vesting" while wandering about for years looking for a big idea with little pressure to deliver anything.

I definitely found this vision attractive, but as I grew older, I realized that it was not entirely tenable in it purest form. The best ideas certain came from having time to wander and work on different things (you get more creative working on multiple decorrelated ideas at the same time rather than one big idea), but in my experience, complete idleness without pressure to deliver anything does not work. I don't know if I believe the premise of In Praise of Idleness any more. We no longer live in a simple world. In a complex world, great ideas come from incrementalism, and keeping busy and making progress seems to be necessary in many domains in order get to the big idea because all the low hanging fruit have been plucked.

Re:In praise of idleness – Bertrand Russell by DenisM on Saturday May 04, 2024 @04:37PM (#40260106)
Low-hanging fruit depletion is a problem, but there are ways of dealing with it:

- A larger number of people searching for the next Newtonian apple all over the place.

- A smaller number of larger groups that pursue a narrow area with intense focus. That’s more like “work” though.

- New areas. Especially software. Google, Facebook, Microsoft, Apple were created by tinkerers with the privilege of free time. This process did not yet stop.

To your other point, not every idle person will pursue new knowledge. And that's ok. A larger number of idle people will contain a larger number of tinkerers.

Re:In praise of idleness – Bertrand Russell by advael on Saturday May 04, 2024 @04:22PM (#40260033)
I think Russel, like many scientists, feels the need to dangle "the next big idea" as a tantalizing reason to allow more idleness. I do think that in an important sense, he is right and you are wrong, that "pressure to deliver" is not as necessary as you think, and that the world has not changed so much since his time so as for him to have once been right but now be wrong

However, I think this takes for granted the primacy of "big ideas" as the sole organizing principle we should arrange the world to efficiently produce, by force if necessary. I think the real argument for UBI is that self-determination is a core value, that the negotiations we make to better society neither need nor should involve a gun to the head of every person not born into wealth. I also think that overvaluing efficiency, expediency, and generally speaking impatience is pushing our species off a cliff

Re:In praise of idleness – Bertrand Russell by naveen99 on Sunday May 05, 2024 @07:54AM (#40264166)
It turns out universal basic literacy (reading and math) and universal basic effort (2 hours of walking or equivalent anctivity) are even more important.
Re:In praise of idleness – Bertrand Russell by advael on Sunday May 05, 2024 @09:57PM (#40270433)
I agree with you that both of these things, and more, are important to encourage in society. In fact, I'd even say that literacy has more components than that, like for example understanding the importance of precision in language, like knowing that "effort" is an overly vague and connotationally loaded choice of words when describing the universal benefits of regular exercise. However, I'm not really sure why any this is relevant in the context of this discussion
Re:In praise of idleness – Bertrand Russell by t43562 on Saturday May 04, 2024 @03:56PM (#40259895)
Keep yourself busy on one thing if you want to. If you don't then why are you doing it?
Re:In praise of idleness – Bertrand Russell by user_7832 on Saturday May 04, 2024 @04:43PM (#40260139)
Re: your last paragraph

I would say there's a mid-point somewhere between overworked 60-hour-a-week employees burning out and folks doing absolutely nothing productive. The nature and environment of work is important too, if you're tilling a farm there's an upper limit on your output, but with the internet anyone can be made to feel inadequate for not "hustling"/"grinding" enough.

Re:In praise of idleness – Bertrand Russell by eszed on Sunday May 05, 2024 @02:47AM (#40262777)
Russell's proposed mid-point is 20 (or maybe 24?) hours of work in a week. That seems sensible to me!
Re:In praise of idleness – Bertrand Russell by bee_rider on Saturday May 04, 2024 @04:43PM (#40260145)
I do wonder if the problem is not enough, or too much idleness.

Isaac Newton is regarded as a genius, but he worked on really basic stuff like calculus and Newtonian mechanics. Of course it was harder, when he and his competitors were inventing it.

Sure, we handle more complex stuff now. But modern highschool material used to be really complex. Eventually theory, frameworks, language, and pedagogy, develop around a field that make it look deceptively simple. That’s still incrementalism but incrementation comes from the next generation that grew up in an environment where our discoveries are table stakes.

Is it possible that you no longer live in a simple world, because you’ve become an expert, and moved on from ingesting the refined model from the previous generation, to either applying the current unrefined model to the hardest problems it can handle, or to building the model for the next generation?

Re:In praise of idleness – Bertrand Russell by galdosdi on Saturday May 04, 2024 @09:30PM (#40261650)
To your point, I took a History of Math class in college, and one week we had to actually do calculus the way Leibniz and Newton would have done it. Some exercise that was easy in our modern notation was actually very painful using period accurate tools. I forget the details, but remember the feeling.
Re:In praise of idleness – Bertrand Russell by jimsimmons on Saturday May 04, 2024 @05:00PM (#40260239)
It comes down to honesty. Are you idle because you want to be idle or are you just being lazy and not going after the opportunity right before you? Are you not pursuing the low-hanging fruit out of principle or is your ego holding you back from doing humbler things?

If you can be honest with such questions then the duality goes away and everything boils down to doing the right thing

Re:In praise of idleness – Bertrand Russell by t43562 on Saturday May 04, 2024 @05:05PM (#40260269)
This is not about idleness or laziness at all. It's about working for the man versus doing what you want to do.
Re:In praise of idleness – Bertrand Russell by jimsimmons on Saturday May 04, 2024 @05:17PM (#40260351)
Right, how do you know what you want to do is not sleeping 15 hrs a day versus getting inspired by some idea
Re:In praise of idleness – Bertrand Russell by t43562 on Saturday May 04, 2024 @05:46PM (#40260548)
Why shouldn't you sleep more if you want to? Why should you feel under pressure to not sleep because you have to add 0s to some billionaire's account - that's exactly what my daily work is about BTW.
Re:In praise of idleness – Bertrand Russell by mantas on Sunday May 05, 2024 @03:39AM (#40263019)
Who will pay for food on your table and roof above your head?

Billionaires pay little tax so that’s not the answer.

Re:In praise of idleness – Bertrand Russell by hackable_sand on Saturday May 04, 2024 @06:34PM (#40260838)
You can do both at the same time.
Re:In praise of idleness – Bertrand Russell by immibis on Saturday May 04, 2024 @10:44PM (#40261906)
If you're actually tired enough to sleep for 15 hours a day then you need it and you'll be much more productive in the remaining 9 hours if you do it. If this condition persists more than say a couple of weeks (if you have some severe sleep debt) then see a doctor.

If you mean lying in bed awake but not really doing anything, then (a) thinking is doing something, (ii) if you're not thinking and just moping then there's a reason why you are depressed and it's not simply that you are just lazy. Right now, the political climate is a big one for a lot of people. And (3) maybe you just haven't stumbled on the right inspiration yet. It's random. Give it time. Go and do some stuff that seems kinda interesting, in the meantime.

I've been in a similar state for several months; I've done some stuff but nothing that exciting. Attending FOSDEM for the first time this year inspired me to join a hackerspace, and to read the code of some open source projects to learn how they work. Some days I stay in bed most of the day or just graze YouTube whether in bed or not (and I hate that after the fact). Some days I want to do something so I do it.

Re:In praise of idleness – Bertrand Russell by FooBarBizBazz on Sunday May 05, 2024 @08:40AM (#40264418)
> sleeping 15 hrs a day

You know, Einstein slept a lot.

Re:In praise of idleness – Bertrand Russell by apples_oranges on Saturday May 04, 2024 @06:25PM (#40260786)
Maybe low hanging fruit only hang low in hindsight. There’s a kind of control-certainty associated with some things, we got this, and there are some things where we at least know what we need to work on. Other things are more vague. So we now have more of the first category (in some areas) and this makes the apples appear to be lower than they were and most likely still are.
Re:In praise of idleness – Bertrand Russell by mycologos on Saturday May 04, 2024 @08:42PM (#40261476)
Another complication is that boredom was easier to come by in 1932. There are far more things competing with far more sophistication for our attention today. Boredom is underrated!
Re:In praise of idleness – Bertrand Russell by hyperthesis on Saturday May 04, 2024 @10:56PM (#40261942)
"[A]ll the low hanging fruit have been plucked" from these trees.

In a complex, highly multi-dimensional space, yes, there's always a hill to incrementally climb. There are other hills.

Incrementalism gets you necessary data; but not necessarily insight.

Re:In praise of idleness – Bertrand Russell by ip26 on Saturday May 04, 2024 @11:28PM (#40262057)
Climbing this hill is the only way you’ll discover the far more tantalizing peak, hidden in the clouds above it.
Re:In praise of idleness – Bertrand Russell by deepsun on Saturday May 04, 2024 @11:21PM (#40262027)
My friend professional musician says that it's a common myth that muse comes to artists randomly.

He says the best inspiration comes from invoices, and deadlines definitely help.

Re:In praise of idleness – Bertrand Russell by willsoon on Sunday May 05, 2024 @12:13AM (#40262189)
That's true. Ideas comes from total idleness or come from being under total pression. Maybe ideas just... comes.
Re:In praise of idleness – Bertrand Russell by ip26 on Saturday May 04, 2024 @11:25PM (#40262043)
It might be a low hanging fruit problem, but just look to all the great ideas that took the tireless efforts of tens of thousands of people to bring to life. Few modern marvels are the product of an solitary, idle daydreamer.

To connect with modern dialogue, we’re talking about the “idea guy”.

Re:In praise of idleness – Bertrand Russell by nextaccountic on Sunday May 05, 2024 @01:24AM (#40262490)
> Google in some ways used to operate like this before the current pivot -- many googlers lived a life of "resting and vesting" while wandering about for years looking for a big idea with little pressure to deliver anything.

I think Valve works like this too (not sure if they stopped)

Re:In praise of idleness – Bertrand Russell by flyingspaceship on Sunday May 05, 2024 @10:02AM (#40264973)
I think most niches right now are vulnerable to someone with passion to come in and completely change everything. The only exception being limited items like GPUs and oil.

Online dating for example is a complete hellscape and there's room for about a thousand passionate individuals to come in at various angles to try to improve it.