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Re:DNS traffic can leak outside the VPN tunnel on Android by selectodude on Friday May 03, 2024 @11:35AM (#40248880)
There are billboards for Mullvad all over Chicago which kind of weird me out.
Re:DNS traffic can leak outside the VPN tunnel on Android by ziddoap on Friday May 03, 2024 @11:53AM (#40249093)
They do traditional advertising (billboards being one example) instead of paid reviews, affiliate/influencer advertising, etc.

https://mullvad.net/en/help/policy-reviews-advertising-and-a...

Re:DNS traffic can leak outside the VPN tunnel on Android by neuronexmachina on Friday May 03, 2024 @01:34PM (#40250172)
Oh wow, I wish more companies had pages like that summarizing what sort of marketing/advertising they do/don't use.
Re:DNS traffic can leak outside the VPN tunnel on Android by ziddoap on Friday May 03, 2024 @01:39PM (#40250223)
I’m fanboying at this point, but I honestly believe Mullvad should be the poster child for a lot of things other companies should be doing. Transparency, accountability, data minimization, thorough documentation, publicly available audits, etc.
Re:DNS traffic can leak outside the VPN tunnel on Android by hughesjj on Friday May 03, 2024 @02:37PM (#40250812)
I've been a happy expressvpn customer since dec 2016 but I'm sincerely considering switching to mullvad at this point
[dead]
Re:DNS traffic can leak outside the VPN tunnel on Android by ziddoap on Friday May 03, 2024 @12:40PM (#40249588)
Holy unsubstantiated accusations, batman.

This can be instantly disproved by examining the cases where valid warrants were presented to them by LEAs and they were unable to provide any user data.

Re:DNS traffic can leak outside the VPN tunnel on Android by lambdaxyzw on Friday May 03, 2024 @12:49PM (#40249699)
Also they actually make it easy to use their services without providing any data - you can use them by paying Monero over tor, and the only thing identifying you is a short unique "identifying number" - no emails, no names, not even an account.
Re:DNS traffic can leak outside the VPN tunnel on Android by yencabulator on Friday May 03, 2024 @01:24PM (#40250044)
I find their gimmick of "buy a physical gift card from Amazon, scratch to reveal one-time code" to be pretty genius. It's just a bulk pile of cards, Amazon records you bought one but doesn't know which one (and the actual code is under a scratch-to-reveal surface).

Even if a three-letter agency intercepted your package and swapped your gift card with a known code, I believe Mullvad is not recording the connection between specific gift code and the account number.

You can also exchange unscratched gift cards with friends and strangers.

Re:DNS traffic can leak outside the VPN tunnel on Android by ziddoap on Friday May 03, 2024 @12:51PM (#40249724)
Indeed. They even accept cash via envelope -- just provide an account number to put the cash towards.
Re:DNS traffic can leak outside the VPN tunnel on Android by nick238 on Friday May 03, 2024 @03:34PM (#40251416)
I'm not saying it's substantiated at all, it just feels very sudden and too weird.
Re:DNS traffic can leak outside the VPN tunnel on Android by kfreds on Friday May 03, 2024 @01:33PM (#40250163)
It's quite simple really.

1. We launched Mullvad 15 years ago. During those 15 years people's interest and awareness of online security and privacy has grown considerably, as has the consumer VPN market.

2. Our strategy is quite different from most of our competitors'. As a result we've grown slower than several of them, but we have nevertheless continued to grow year after year.

3. The costs of the campaign are perhaps lower than you assume.

tl;dr We've slowly grown over many years and are now making enough money to plaster privacy propaganda over your city. Hopefully it's an interesting change from the usual bus ads. Enjoy!

Re:DNS traffic can leak outside the VPN tunnel on Android by kfreds on Friday May 03, 2024 @01:20PM (#40249999)
I'm sorry you feel that way, but I can relate. I initially had mixed feelings about it as well.

On the other hand the campaign we did in Stockholm last year worked out quite well. It managed to affect both domestic and EU legislative discussions at the time. Or at least our campaign contributed to moving the discussion in the right direction.

How much is that worth? I'm not sure, but the reason we started Mullvad in the first place was to conduct political action through entrepreneurship, specifically regarding mass surveillance and censorship.

If nothing else it seems to amuse a lot of people, including me and my colleagues. When I first heard of the idea of plastering privacy propaganda all over some major U.S. cities my initial reaction was more or less "lol, we can just do that?". As it turns out we can. :)

Re:DNS traffic can leak outside the VPN tunnel on Android by j0e1 on Friday May 03, 2024 @02:03PM (#40250490)
Thank you for sharing that! I am definitely part of the HN group think that tends to be irked by mass marketing- mainly because of baggage from the past of false advertising. However, I do agree that getting the non-IT geek's attention is what would actually move the needle for political action. I was amused (mostly surprised) to see a billboard while driving down the 110 in LA. More importantly, it led to a cool discussion with my non-tech wife who now appreciates your guys' brand more. :)
Re:DNS traffic can leak outside the VPN tunnel on Android by chefandy on Friday May 03, 2024 @02:29PM (#40250731)
As frustrating as it is, even great products don't sell themselves. I find much, if not most marketing for subscription-based services pretty scummy, but it's not like it has to be, and I'd much rather see physical ads than how most stuff gets surreptitiously slipped into my surveillance-capitalism-sponsored life.
Re:DNS traffic can leak outside the VPN tunnel on Android by walterbell on Friday May 03, 2024 @03:47PM (#40251583)
> plastering privacy propaganda all over some major U.S. cities

The ads are great to see in NYC subway and giant billboard near NY Times HQ.

Is there an online page with all of the ads? Maybe a video tour of the ads "in the wild" in different cities?

Re:DNS traffic can leak outside the VPN tunnel on Android by kfreds on Friday May 03, 2024 @06:01PM (#40252891)
Thanks! I don't think so unfortunately. It's a great idea though.
Re:DNS traffic can leak outside the VPN tunnel on Android by walterbell on Friday May 03, 2024 @06:35PM (#40253111)
Since there's no existing compendium, maybe a social media contest for people submitting photos of anonymized objects (e.g. in a box), books (hardback with custom cover), humans (costume/mask/etc) with Mullvad ads / billboard in the background. Crowdsource field reporting and motivate discussion about metadata in online and offline privacy.
Re:DNS traffic can leak outside the VPN tunnel on Android by gaudystead on Friday May 03, 2024 @02:54PM (#40250976)
Okay, this comment was the comment that got me sold on Mullvad. I was looking for a VPN I liked anyway and if you also use your business entity to help drive legislation toward a more privacy focused end, I'm in.
Re:DNS traffic can leak outside the VPN tunnel on Android by trelane on Friday May 03, 2024 @05:18PM (#40252491)
For me, (one of) the moments was when there figured out how to do remote attestation of the server to check that what it was running was what you expected, so you could check its privacy yourself.

Rather a neat subversion of the common corporate use of remote attestation, to preserve user privacy and security rather than curtail it.

Re:DNS traffic can leak outside the VPN tunnel on Android by kfreds on Friday May 03, 2024 @06:08PM (#40252943)
Thank you! You are of course referring to System Transparency. I feel obligated to point out that we have yet to fully implement that idea. I've been working on it, and the related projects Sigsum and Tillitis, for the past six years. There have been lots of detours, but we are making progress towards the vision outlined in the blog post I wrote in 2019: https://mullvad.net/en/blog/system-transparency-future

Two years ago we moved the OSS projects System Transparency and Sigsum to its own organization: Glasklar Teknik AB (glasklarteknik.se).

The OSS and OSHW project TKey was moved to Mullvad's other sister company Tillitis AB (tillitis.se)

Re:DNS traffic can leak outside the VPN tunnel on Android by SturgeonsLaw on Friday May 03, 2024 @06:17PM (#40252998)
Re:DNS traffic can leak outside the VPN tunnel on Android by pyinstallwoes on Friday May 03, 2024 @02:36PM (#40250808)
How did you measure the effectiveness of physical ads to issues and other key metrics? I’m just curious what it takes to measure those as it’s always been mysterious to me. It seems like it needs to include a coupon code or something? Also interesting re: legislation. How so?
Re:DNS traffic can leak outside the VPN tunnel on Android by kfreds on Friday May 03, 2024 @03:18PM (#40251242)
To my knowledge we don't measure it, at least not in the way I think you mean.

I can't speak for my marketing colleagues but I would assume they reason about it. It seems like a complex system to me, which means the approach kind of has to be (1) forming an understanding of the system and (2) deciding whether one is comfortable with the uncertainty.

One aspect that makes the cost/benefit assessment quite a bit easier is that we don't only care about how many new paying customers we get. It's also fun to do this kind of advertisement. How many interesting conversations about privacy have been had as a result of people seeing our billboards? That's worth something too.

Re:DNS traffic can leak outside the VPN tunnel on Android by nickburns on Friday May 03, 2024 @01:57PM (#40250419)
thank you for offering up in this forum at least your own personal contributions to your organization's position on its advertising campaigns. not sure if any official statements on the matter have been made elsewhere, but you've assuaged at least my own slight concern about it with this one. truly. (and by 'truly' i mean i've been meaning to stuff some cash in an envelope addressed to you guys!)

transparency is absolutely a corporate virtue.

Re:DNS traffic can leak outside the VPN tunnel on Android by dhsh on Sunday May 05, 2024 @06:20AM (#40263670)
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Re:DNS traffic can leak outside the VPN tunnel on Android by anakaine on Friday May 03, 2024 @10:17PM (#40254279)
Thank you for the service that you and the rest of the team provide. I've found it to be excellent, and you're one of only a very slim number of transparent VPN providers who seem to be in it for the right reasons.
Re:DNS traffic can leak outside the VPN tunnel on Android by starttoaster on Friday May 03, 2024 @01:39PM (#40250222)
What is it about a company spreading awareness about their product that weirds you out in particular, I'm curious? Billboard advertisements are an awareness type of advertisement. I'd be much more concerned to learn about paid endorsements, which they document on their website that they specifically do not do. Endorsements are a much more sensitive form of advertising, where once money trades hands for an endorsement, it stops being a useful third party assessment and starts being an advertisement disguised as a third party assessment. Awareness advertisements just make good business sense, so I'm genuinely curious why those would shy anybody away.
Re:DNS traffic can leak outside the VPN tunnel on Android by epcoa on Friday May 03, 2024 @01:51PM (#40250348)
I saw them on the side of a CTA bus for the first time the other day. I don’t think it is bad at all, but the initial reaction for me as an American used to typical bus advertising it was exactly as if seeing an ad for 4chan there. It just isn’t the expected modality for the product.

(Seeing the reply down thread from a Mullvad rep, this is not unexpected)

Re:DNS traffic can leak outside the VPN tunnel on Android by int_19h on Friday May 03, 2024 @03:20PM (#40251269)
I agree with you, but I also understand where GP is coming from. For the past 20 years, what people are mostly exposed to is internet ads, which are, to put it mildly, pushy. As a result, all ads now have to deal with considerable negative sentiment as a baseline simply by virtue of being ads.
Re:DNS traffic can leak outside the VPN tunnel on Android by snowwrestler on Saturday May 04, 2024 @11:17AM (#40258290)
My concern with the Mullvad ads is that some are essentially lying about what their product does. One of the ads I recall said something like:

> Imagine an ad that won’t track you after you see it

> Mullvad VPN

That’s not what a VPN does though. Tunneling my browsing does not stop sites from serving ads, setting cookies, fingerprinting browsers, etc.

Re:DNS traffic can leak outside the VPN tunnel on Android by xnyan on Saturday May 04, 2024 @02:11PM (#40259292)
> That’s not what a VPN does though.

Mullvad itself is extremely clear that use of a VPN alone is not enough for the reasons you stated. Mullvad VPN (which is what they advertised) is a suite of products and services, some of which are:

- DNS services (ads, tracking)

- A privacy-optimized browser (cookies, fingerprinting)

- Network services like multihop routing (many benefits such as resistance to timing attacks)

All of these services are included with your subscription at no additional cost. I feel like the claim of preventing ad tracking is as legitimate as it could possibly be.