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Re:Google lays off its Python team by VBprogrammer on Friday April 26, 2024 @12:32PM (#40171332)
This might be my prejudice but when someone talks about offshoring a role, moving it to Munich isn't the first thing that comes to mind. It may be slightly cheaper than California but not by so much that if expect it to be the main reason for doing so.
Re:Google lays off its Python team by pjmlp on Friday April 26, 2024 @12:58PM (#40171688)
There are tons of people in Europe working as offshore resources for American companies.

Being the same Western culture helps a lot versus other areas favoured for offshoring.

[dead]
Re:Google lays off its Python team by allarm on Sunday April 28, 2024 @04:46PM (#40191706)
How hard is it? As in - they have to let you work for the duration of the notice period hard? Honest question.
Re:Google lays off its Python team by socksy on Sunday April 28, 2024 @06:28PM (#40192562)
As in, they would have to prove, potentially in court, that the layoff was absolutely necessary to actually be about to do it, plus pay an undefined fair severance amount (that people mostly seem to accept as 0.5 * monthly salary * years of tenure at the company), on top of the on-average 3 month notice period, which most companies will give as garden leave in order to not reduce morale even further.

If you can't prove that you need to cut the person for "operational" reasons (e.g. because you're not really getting rid of python tooling engineers), then your best bet is to dangle large cash offers to people in order to entice them to quit.

If they do manage to prove they need to do layoffs, for example when the company is literally running out of money, then they're not allowed to just lay off employees as they like (and definitely not in relation to performance). Instead they have to follow the "Sozialauswahl" which means that factors like whether the employee is supporting a family, is older, etc need to be taken into account.

Then on top of all that, they won't be able to hire people even for completely unrelated roles, for some amount of time afterwards.

So all in all there's a few disincentives for layoffs to be considered as a first action (it's not stopped it from happening at a bunch of companies lately though, Bosch, SoundCloud, Ableton, Native Instruments, Personio, Pitch etc).

Re:Google lays off its Python team by fuckthemusers on Monday April 29, 2024 @04:21AM (#40195893)
I'm sure this comes with some drawbacks, perhaps more cautious hiring, but I like the sound of these regulations. Anything to give employees a ballast against wild swings in the share price. If layoffs had a more delayed effect on the business (and could be reversed in court) there would be less incentive for CEOs to pull that lever.
Re:Google lays off its Python team by dongping on Sunday April 28, 2024 @05:39PM (#40192247)
Aside from the mandatory negotiation with the employee co-determination (works council), the layoffs "must be determined according to the principles of social selection [...] (t)his is often perceived as a major obstacle [...] it would be disastrous to have to dismiss top performers simply because they are younger than other employees or have been recently hired."

[Source] Random link from the Internet so that I don't need to translate: https://www.emplawyers-muenchen.de/wp-content/uploads/files/...

Re:Google lays off its Python team by ghosty141 on Tuesday April 30, 2024 @01:17PM (#40213453)
You are on the spot, it's almost impossible to lay somebody off who is like 50 y/o and has kids + has been with the company for quite a while.

Generally, workers rights here in Germany are quite good so as an employee life tends to be quite comfortable since you don't have to fear termination the moment the company isn't doing exceptionally well.

Re:Google lays off its Python team by fsloth on Saturday April 27, 2024 @03:48PM (#40182858)
”Slightly cheaper”? What are the actual numbers we are talking about regarding yearly comp?
Re:Google lays off its Python team by lbruno on Sunday April 28, 2024 @02:27AM (#40186460)
TC diffs of 230k vs 350k is what i've seen, for a mid-career SRE
Re:Google lays off its Python team by Sleepful on Sunday April 28, 2024 @03:19PM (#40191064)
It's still not a lot considering that you get the same benefit from hiring in LCOL in the USA
Re:Google lays off its Python team by emodendroket on Saturday April 27, 2024 @05:25PM (#40183697)
You might think twice if you looked at the figures; the numbers in this article comparing US and UK wages are astounding: https://www.wsj.com/finance/investing/britain-white-collar-j...

(and this article goes into the rationale too. Basically the idea is you're paying more than you would in a developing economy, but you can trust the team with more autonomy and fewer cultural misunderstandings, so it's an option for offshoring higher-value work)

Re:Google lays off its Python team by wing-_-nuts on Sunday April 28, 2024 @11:37AM (#40189388)
You know, it makes me wonder how hard it would be to use this divide to actually move to the EU and get residency. Then again, with so many countries having to beef up military spending and facing economic headwinds you really have to question whether all the social / quality of life programs that make europe more livable than the US would be sustainable long term either.

Who knows maybe in 30 years Americans ultimately have a higher quality of life just due to our stronger economic position making it easier to sustainably fund M4A or whatever.

Re:Google lays off its Python team by phendrenad2 on Sunday April 28, 2024 @12:59PM (#40189967)
Military spending is a good point. If the middle class all moves to Germany, the US tax base will suffer, and probably Germany will have to raise taxes for their military to compensate. But that would take decades.
Re:Google lays off its Python team by emodendroket on Sunday April 28, 2024 @01:05PM (#40190008)
If you work a white-collar job the US standard of living is substantially higher. If you're a laborer the opposite is true but you also probably have a harder time getting in to Europe in the first place.
Re:Google lays off its Python team by wing-_-nuts on Sunday April 28, 2024 @02:19PM (#40190567)
I really do wonder if our material standard of living really contributes to happiness though? I don't want more 'stuff' I want guaranteed access to healthcare. I want worker and consumer rights. I want a country that recognizes climate change is a real problem and is doing something about it. I want a more fair and representative government actually beholden to the will of the people. I don't need a McMansion, a luxury car, I want a better society. I feel like Europe, or at least the Nordics, have that, and if my parents were not here in the US, I think I'd happily move.
Re:Google lays off its Python team by jck on Sunday April 28, 2024 @05:00PM (#40191837)
I'm grew up in India and went to grad school in the US and worked there. Eventually, I transferred to the UK cause I didn't get through the US work visa lottery.

I'm much happier here because of the reasons you mentioned. I feel like my friends in America have are basically amassing wealth to insulate their liberal bubble in a conservative land. However, they might not be able to outweath the recent success of right wing policies that the American supreme Court has managed to impose.

For me personally, even the "low" tech salaries in Europe (think something like 150k an year total) is more than enough for the lifestyle I desire. If amassing wealth isn't your primary motivator, it absolutely makes sense to move to a society which better aligns with your values. That would probably be the EU for someone like you and me, but UK is EU lite.

I love that everybody here has the same access to healthcare and the fact that my high taxes help that. I like that the population responds to the actions of the elected officials - like how the current UK govt is doing absolutely terribly in current polls. In the US, it seems like it's always a tight race regardless of what the government does. I love being able to use public Transit to get to most places. I'd rather my potential kids grow up in a kinder society, where their wellbeing wouldn't be at risk if something were to happen to me or my job.

Re:Google lays off its Python team by jck on Sunday April 28, 2024 @05:12PM (#40191985)
Oh, and also, if I choose to permanently live in the UK, or EU, the path to citizenship is deterministic with a known timeline.

In the US, the time from Green card to citizenship is unbounded. people from India and China are pretty much never going to become citizens till they exploit some loophole like having an American baby.

Re:Google lays off its Python team by I_AM_A_SMURF on Monday April 29, 2024 @06:18PM (#40204798)
The problem is getting a green card not citizenship. From a green card you can naturalize in 3 or 5 years.
Re:Google lays off its Python team by jck on Wednesday May 01, 2024 @08:12PM (#40231244)
Apologies, you are correct. I haven't considered emigrating to the US for years and forgot the specific details. Most of my recent knowledge just comes from my friends who live there.

Iirc you can indefinitely keep getting renewals on your h1b while waiting on the green card queue - and this queue is many decades long for people from certain countries like India and China.

Re:Google lays off its Python team by emodendroket on Sunday April 28, 2024 @05:09PM (#40191954)
I don't feel like the UK is in an especially strong position to look down at the US for being too conservative or doing too little for its poorer citizens but I'm glad you've found a place that suits you regardless.
Re:Google lays off its Python team by jck on Sunday April 28, 2024 @05:30PM (#40192178)
I agree that UK isn't as left wing as I'd like, but there is really a huge difference between what's considered right wing between the UK and the US. For instance, the NHS. Poor or unemployed people get the same access to healthcare as I do.

In my personal experience, there is also less stratification and less overt racism or bigotry. However, they're pioneering new and clever bigotry against trans people now and that concerns me.

Re:Google lays off its Python team by emodendroket on Sunday April 28, 2024 @05:46PM (#40192295)
> For instance, the NHS. Poor or unemployed people get the same access to healthcare as I do.

Sure, and the Conservative Party, who has enjoyed a very long period of uninterrupted rule, has been gradually sabotaging it with the obvious hope that is falls apart and market reforms can be implemented. Most of these differences have more to do with the legacy of the post-War period than anything about the current political situation.

The UK is also significantly whiter than the US is, which is something of a counterpoint to the idea that they're less bigoted, in my view.

Re:Google lays off its Python team by bwhillers on Wednesday May 01, 2024 @06:15PM (#40230256)
See what you did there? You conclude that because UK is "whiter", it means they are not "less bigoted". That's weird and I hope you understand what your brain did there.
Re:Google lays off its Python team by bwhillers on Wednesday May 01, 2024 @06:16PM (#40230266)
Can you give an example of new and clever bigotry?
Re:Google lays off its Python team by emodendroket on Sunday April 28, 2024 @05:16PM (#40192019)
I'm not in a position to tell anyone what to value in life, but I don't personally feel that insecure about my access to healthcare or workplace conditions, and I also feel that a lot of Americans have an unrealistic idea of what life in other countries is like or how their political situation is. For instance, does Norway take climate change more seriously than the US? In some sense they may, but on the other hand they're the world's third-largest exporter of natural gas in the world, after Russia and Qatar. Europe has its own spate of nationalistic far-right politicians, anti-immigrant politics, austerity, and other social ills we don't much think about when using them as a counterpoint to ourselves. We're all participants in a global system, after all.
Re:Google lays off its Python team by wing-_-nuts on Sunday April 28, 2024 @07:20PM (#40192898)
Norway is kinda caught between a fortunate rock and a hard place. Their gas reserves are absolutely crucial and strategic for security in Europe as a whole. You'll note the country itself went absolutely whole hog on electrifying transport and infrastructure (powered via hydro) so they could export their gas to the rest of europe. This really paid off when Russia cut off oil and natural gas as Europe would have been crippled otherwise.

I suppose healthcare is a major issue for me due to my disability. When I had to get insurance on the private market prior to the ACA I had to go in the high risk pool, which was stupidly expensive even as a SWE. I hear it's better now but every year some Republican gets the bright idea to try to repeal it. I fear with enough of a majority they will.

Re:Google lays off its Python team by Attrecomet on Tuesday April 30, 2024 @08:29AM (#40210307)
Everybody tough with their job-dependent healthcare until they are let go because a chronic illness is too debilitating for the demands of the job and they are left with nothing but monthly medical costs of a few tens of thousands of dollars.
Re:Google lays off its Python team by run414 on Sunday April 28, 2024 @09:16PM (#40193412)
Just curious, have you ever lived or spent a significant amount of time in Nordics (or anywhere in Europe)? Generally speaking, I find that people who haven't lived outside the their birth-country often romanticize life in other countries.

I immigrated from the US to another country a while back, and it's not unusual for me to meet newcomers with unrealistic expectations about life in their new home. Often, they go back to their birth-country after a few years, disappointed with the mundane reality of living in a foreign country.

I'm not trying to say that your wrong, necessarily. For some people, life can be better in other countries, but I caution against unrealistic expectations.

Re:Google lays off its Python team by crabbone on Monday April 29, 2024 @09:59AM (#40198434)
> cultural misunderstandings

It's funny that you think that being located in Europe the positions will be stuffed with Europeans...

I'm in this exact situation: work for American company, while living in the EU. Am not a EU citizen (Eastern Europe / Middle East). More than half of those working with me are foreigners too. Eastern Europe, Middle East, Latin America and India would be the most common origin countries. Europe immigrates tech workers by a truckload.

To reflect on the original issue. I'd guess that some manager either hated some other manager, or was looking for a promotion or was just dumb and executed some instruction in the stupidest way possible... there doesn't seem to be any apparent reason to move a team like that. Even if the team was entirely rehired in the poorest place on Earth, we are still talking about ten people. Whatever difference Google makes from the move is not even peanuts. If there's a manager being rewarded for this stupid idea, their bonus will probably be more than whatever savings this move can possibly generate.

I don't believe there's any actual rational justification for this move. Just middle management being middle management.

Re:Google lays off its Python team by emodendroket on Monday April 29, 2024 @10:14AM (#40198611)
Whether they are or not they presumably speak English well and are familiar with anglophone culture if they’re living in the UK.
Re:Google lays off its Python team by crabbone on Monday April 29, 2024 @01:21PM (#40201250)
There are many layers to "being familiar with anglo culture"... being able to understand technical documentation to a degree won't cut it in many cases.

I went through several stages of learning retroactively (i.e. not appropriate to my age) through dating or having otherwise good relationships with someone from the US. So, for example, I've learned about TV shows like Daria or Dr. Who many years after they came out. (And yes, I've learned about Dr. Who from an American friend, and before that I didn't know there's a thing for more educated Americans where they think that Brits are more... refined, not sure if that's the right word).

I'm married to someone born in the US, so, through her and the need of dealing with the kid who grows up primarily speaking English I've learned nursery rhymes, lullabies and a bunch of kids folklore that I would've never come in touch with in my line of work.

More than that, you can perfectly well live in another country and never really know the side of life of the locals if you are never invited to visit, or don't develop very good relationships with the locals. You might never know what home-cooked food looks like because you'd only have access to store-bought or restaurant meals. (Eg. I didn't know that mac-and-cheese was such a common food in the US until I was invited to visit someone in an informal setting). And there's plenty more of it. It'd take a book to try to enumerate all of these.

This both affects the less formal communication one may have with their peers as well as contributes to cultural mixups especially when it comes to customer-facing interfaces.

Re:Google lays off its Python team by chucke1992 on Saturday April 27, 2024 @05:49PM (#40183885)
In USA it is quite easy to get above 200k USD. In Europe the comparable salary would be around 180k and it almost never reaches that point.

Even 100k is considered a lot.

Re:Google lays off its Python team by bananapub on Sunday April 28, 2024 @08:00AM (#40187965)
> It may be slightly cheaper than California but not by so much that if expect it to be the main reason for doing so.

extremely wrong. what are you basing your assumption on?

the cost of a Munich employee is less than half of the cost of a California one, when you take into account salary, stock, office costs, whinging, etc.

Re:Google lays off its Python team by torginus on Monday April 29, 2024 @04:59AM (#40196130)
You might be surprised - the absolute difference in salary between Munich and a trendy US tech hub is more than $100k. The difference between getting a decent dev in Poland vs Munich is $30-50k max.