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Re:Biden signs TikTok 'ban' bill into law, starting clock fo... by themgt on Wednesday April 24, 2024 @12:35PM (#40146526)
The story back in the ancient history of ~1989->2021 was our free open liberal system was so obviously superior that we were just going to wait around for China to realize their dumb mistake and join us at the end of history. Their great firewall would cripple their economy until then. The new story is we're copying China's tactics because China did it first and it works great.

I mean, sure, go with that. But it doesn't negate the irony.

Re:Biden signs TikTok 'ban' bill into law, starting clock fo... by 23B1 on Wednesday April 24, 2024 @04:59PM (#40149567)
There's no irony in realpolitik.
Re:Biden signs TikTok 'ban' bill into law, starting clock fo... by sudosysgen on Wednesday April 24, 2024 @06:47PM (#40150807)
The rejection of realpolitik is at the core of modern liberalism (indeed, in international relations, liberalism is antipodal to realism which is realpolitiks namesake), so the irony persists.
Re:Biden signs TikTok 'ban' bill into law, starting clock fo... by 23B1 on Wednesday April 24, 2024 @08:41PM (#40151802)
That's... a fair point.
Re:Biden signs TikTok 'ban' bill into law, starting clock fo... by alickz on Wednesday April 24, 2024 @09:28PM (#40152218)
> The rejection of realpolitik is at the core of modern liberalism

why do you believe so?

i see no reason why rationalism and political pragmatism are mutually exclusive with liberalism. in fact to me it seems they complement each other well

Re:Biden signs TikTok 'ban' bill into law, starting clock fo... by sudosysgen on Wednesday April 24, 2024 @10:05PM (#40152505)
Realpolitik and rationalism are not the same thing. Realpolitik is the idea that politics (esp. international politics) is ultimately dominated by power politics where each actor is trying to maximize their power and self-interest, and is generally an idea of the realist school of politics

While that might arguably be compatible with liberalism within a society where there is a relatively benevolent monopoly of power imposing a certain number of rights and rules molding the self-interest of all in such a way as to be compatible with civilization, within the international system there is no monopoly of violence, and therefore norms and rights are contingent on countries not acting purely in their self-interest and therefore to maximize their power.

Since modern liberalism is inherently internationalist (arguably since Woodrow Wilson, some called his approach to diplomacy "idealpolitik"), modern liberalism does have to reject realism as a school of thought.

The debate between liberalism and realism as it pertains to international politics is the main topic of contention in international relations theory.

More generally, you can also argue that liberalism assumes the good faith of powerful people not to destroy the liberal system to maximize their own power, but this is far easier to argue against in the domestic setting than in the international setting.

Re:Biden signs TikTok 'ban' bill into law, starting clock fo... by Gormo on Thursday April 25, 2024 @10:04AM (#40157743)
And given the repeated examples of how realpolitik has led to conflict escalation, war, economic collapse, etc., the superiority of modern liberalism should be obvious.

It seems fairly clear to me why this is the case: complex, conflict-prone relationships often involve prisoner's dilemmas, and alignment on fundamental principles is an effective method for avoiding the worst-case outcome of a prisoner's dilemma. Abandoning principles for a purely situational approach to conflict makes the presumptive lose-lose outcome much more likely.

Re:Biden signs TikTok 'ban' bill into law, starting clock fo... by sudosysgen on Thursday April 25, 2024 @12:30PM (#40159600)
While modern liberalism rejects realpolitik in theory, in practice the structures it has set up have often been ignored by purportedly liberal actors, so your argument from experience is very tenuous.

As far as prisoner's dilemmas, its a lot more complicated than that. A purely pragmatic approach can lead to win-win outcomes that would be impossible in a purely idealist framework - realist IR scholars would, for example, argue (and could back it up far better than the alternative) that if it wasn't for Bush and Cheney's idealism, the 2003 Iraq war would never have occurred.

The realist counterpoint to the prisoner's dilemma is that it's not just due to conflict prone relationships, but because it's impossible to know what the intentions of other actors are, which is not something that international liberalism can solve in practice. In theory, liberalists would argue that two liberal states can communicate their true intentions well because their intentions reflect the intentions of the population, but this has conclusively been proven to be untrue in the case of foreign policy (not very surprising due to the way intelligence has to be set up), and therefore the liberalist rebuttal to uncertainty of intentions seems much weaker now than it did originally.

As a result, realists argue that following realpolitik can actually reduce the likelihood of war, as agents will be careful to act in such a way as to avoid seeming as to pose a threat in the absence of knowledge of their intentions, while a liberal actor, acting according to their ideals, would act in a way such that an actor who is unsure of their true intentions would have to perceive as a threat.

This means that you just can't assert easily that realism is more likely to cause lose-lose outcomes. It's a complicated argument where this kind of ironclad certainty just isn't justifiable.

Re:Biden signs TikTok 'ban' bill into law, starting clock fo... by gretch on Wednesday April 24, 2024 @12:51PM (#40146808)
We're copying china's tactics wrt CHINA specifically (and other foreign adversaries)

This is not the same thing as copying China's approach to the world

Reciprocation is rational and good

Re:Biden signs TikTok 'ban' bill into law, starting clock fo... by tristor on Wednesday April 24, 2024 @12:48PM (#40146749)
> The story back in the ancient history of ~1989->2021 was our free open liberal system was so obviously superior that we were just going to wait around for China to realize their dumb mistake

That story worked out fine until US companies started sending all their IP over to China for manufacturing which resulted in 3 key outcomes that broke the initial strategy:

1. It funded and supported the buildout of China's manufacturing base. China now has the best manufacturing base in the world, and in some cases is the only place in the world certain things can be feasibly made.

2. It guaranteed an export market for Chinese goods which helped to drive their economic engine.

3. It allowed unfettered industrial espionage. There is a reason that nearly every product in existence has a Chinese clone/counterfeit available within a week of launch.

The strategy failed, because the Great Firewall only keeps information out of China that the government wants kept out of China, but any other information goes in, but it prevents pretty much all information from flowing out. Firewalls are not binary, they are tunable with policy, and the Chinese government has historically had a strong strategy and nuanced policy, which has allowed them to see great economic success despite reducing freedom of information. Fundamentally, it's economics that drives the rise and fall of governments.

Re:Biden signs TikTok 'ban' bill into law, starting clock fo... by intrasight on Wednesday April 24, 2024 @11:21PM (#40153031)
> US companies started sending all their IP over to China

That's how capitalism works. And it worked extremely well and to most everyone's benefit.

Re:Biden signs TikTok 'ban' bill into law, starting clock fo... by j0ba on Wednesday April 24, 2024 @12:46PM (#40146727)
Nonsense. A free and open system does not require foreign adversaries to be given free access to manipulate and control the population. That's not an open system, that's pure stupidity.
Re:Biden signs TikTok 'ban' bill into law, starting clock fo... by falleng0d on Wednesday April 24, 2024 @04:19PM (#40149072)
Sorry but reciprocation is not copying. This is basic game theory. A 'tit for a tat'.
Re:Biden signs TikTok 'ban' bill into law, starting clock fo... by mjamesaustin on Wednesday April 24, 2024 @05:19PM (#40149806)
Reciprocation is actually the policy more likely to get China to open up. As long as they can impose rules on US companies with impunity, while we stand back and give them free reign in our market, they have a zero likelihood of compromising.
Re:Biden signs TikTok 'ban' bill into law, starting clock fo... by janalsncm on Wednesday April 24, 2024 @10:42PM (#40152746)
I don’t see this as reciprocation, I see it as a continuation of an existing policy that requires US media to be owned by Americans.

I do agree with you though that the capitalism=democracy experiment was a pretty obvious failure. You can have pretty free markets with or without democracy. The US emerged from the Cold Wa with ideological battle scars which prevent us from doing what’s best for the people because that might be communism. We are gradually finding out that concentrated corporate power is potentially an even greater threat.