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Re:Identical twins both grew up with autism, but took differ... by hiciu on Saturday April 13, 2024 @07:26AM (#40022352)
> identical twins at opposite ends of the autism spectrum.

I understand this is just a figure of speech, but this wording suggests that there are "two ends" of the spectrum and (as I understand it) autistic communities are trying to fight that myth.

Re:Identical twins both grew up with autism, but took differ... by kthartic on Saturday April 13, 2024 @08:11AM (#40022624)
As a laymen, isn't the spectrum just 'less autistic tendencies' and 'more autistic tendencies'? Is this a myth, or does the spectrum refer to something else? I was always under the impression that some people could be more autistic than others.
Re:Identical twins both grew up with autism, but took differ... by __s on Saturday April 13, 2024 @08:39AM (#40022774)
There are multiple dimensions

https://getgoally.com/blog/autism-spectrum-wheel

Along with many comorbidities (adhd, ocd, depression, etc) which are more likely but not requisite

This leads to the saying "if you've met one person with autism, you've met one person with autism"

Re:Identical twins both grew up with autism, but took differ... by AlexandrB on Saturday April 13, 2024 @10:30AM (#40023377)
> "if you've met one person with autism, you've met one person with autism"

Isn't this true for just about any condition? It's not like people with ADHD or depression all behave exactly the same. I understand the urge to avoid categorizing people too broadly, but at the same time making the "taxonomy" of a condition hyperspecific is contradictory to having the label in the first place.

If saying "I have autism" has no descriptive power because this could mean a million different things, it seems like the term needs to be retired or narrowed to a specific set of behaviors/challenges.

Re:Identical twins both grew up with autism, but took differ... by crisply5706 on Saturday April 13, 2024 @11:08AM (#40023613)
Keep in mind that the current state of our knowledge of autism and other neurological conditions is still extremely new. Just 30 years ago, you would have been told that only young white boys exhibit autism.

There is debate within the autism community about ditching the catch-all term "autism", but I don't expect it to go anywhere. Broad labels like that are useful. I can tell a random person that I'm autistic and they generally understand that my "abnormal" behavior is innocuous. It's less useful to give a stranger a 30 minute lecture on my individual needs and challenges.

Read up on the controversy around asperger's and the "high/low functioning" dichotomy. These were standard measures for a long time and have only been dropped in the last ten years or so.

Re:Identical twins both grew up with autism, but took differ... by ZeroGravitas on Sunday April 14, 2024 @06:34AM (#40030155)
I've heard it used exactly that way for ADHD.

But more widely, there's a bunch of conditions of varying severity that might be caused by being in a car crash. That doesn't make "I was in a car crash" a bad answer to "what happened to your leg/eye/speech", it's just a fact.

Re:Identical twins both grew up with autism, but took differ... by posix_compliant on Saturday April 13, 2024 @08:43AM (#40022793)
Then the spectrum would refer to the magnitude of any vector in multidimensional “autism space”.
Re:Identical twins both grew up with autism, but took differ... by __s on Saturday April 13, 2024 @09:17AM (#40022952)
Sure, but saying two people are the same magnitude is very different from saying they have the same level of touch sensitivity

Two complex numbers can have the same magnitude & be very far apart. Assuming we stick to the positive/positive quadrant it's not so bad. This metaphor (which, the spectrum itself is a metaphor, making this a metaphor of a metaphor) is to a 2d space tho, complex numbers are much more comparable based on magnitude as a result

Re:Identical twins both grew up with autism, but took differ... by thaumasiotes on Saturday April 13, 2024 @09:45AM (#40023107)
> Two complex numbers can have the same magnitude & be very far apart.

Only if their magnitude is large; the maximum possible distance between two complex numbers of equal magnitude is double that magnitude.

And this limit is independent of the number of dimensions in the space you're working in; no two equal-magnitude vectors are ever farther apart than opposite vectors are.

If you stick to the first quadrant / octant / whatever n-dimensional division of space where all coordinates are positive... I don't think the number of dimensions makes any difference there either? Any two vectors define a plane (or a line, or, if they're both zero, a point), so two vectors in a 500-dimensional space can't be farther apart from each other than is possible for two vectors in a 2-dimensional space. Those 500-dimensional vectors are already embedded in a 2-dimensional space.

Re:Identical twins both grew up with autism, but took differ... by SiempreViernes on Saturday April 13, 2024 @10:35AM (#40023415)
"very far" is of course relative: if we have tree vectors, two of length R and one of length 0.99*R, it's not outlandish to call the distance 2R between the two vectors of equal magnitude "very large" compared to the distance 0.01R between two vectors of dissimilar magnitude.

Your last comment is completely incorrect, for a point at (1,1,1,....) each extra dimension adds a constant 1 to the euclidean distance, so that in 500 dimensions a point at (1,1,1,....) is around 22.4 units away from the origin, while in two dimensions it is only 1.4 units away from the origin.

Re:Identical twins both grew up with autism, but took differ... by __s on Saturday April 13, 2024 @10:48AM (#40023495)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwAD6dRSVyI 3Blue1Brown on visualizing higher dimensions explains it well
Re:Identical twins both grew up with autism, but took differ... by thaumasiotes on Saturday April 13, 2024 @11:07AM (#40023604)
> Your last comment is completely incorrect

How so? Your followup makes no sense.

> for a point at (1,1,1,....) each extra dimension adds a constant 1 to the euclidean distance, so that in 500 dimensions a point at (1,1,1,....) is around 22.4 units away from the origin, while in two dimensions it is only 1.4 units away from the origin.

You're comparing vectors of different magnitudes. You could equally object that (200, 0) is much farther away from the origin than (2, 0) is. That's true, but so what? You're still in a two-dimensional space.

Are you under the impression that the "magnitude" of a vector and its "distance from the origin" are separate concepts? They aren't.

Re:Identical twins both grew up with autism, but took differ... by AnthonyMouse on Sunday April 14, 2024 @12:42AM (#40028724)
Consider simple two-dimensional space. A point at (1,0) is 1 unit away from the origin, as is a point at (0,1). But a point at (1,1) is approximately 1.4 away from the origin, i.e. sqrt(1^2 + 1^2). See Pythagorean theorem.
Re:Identical twins both grew up with autism, but took differ... by thaumasiotes on Sunday April 14, 2024 @12:56AM (#40028767)
Yes, what's your point? Vectors with larger magnitudes have larger magnitudes than vectors with smaller magnitudes do?

If you're going to defend the idea that something I said was incorrect, maybe you should have some idea of what it was?

Re:Identical twins both grew up with autism, but took differ... by AnthonyMouse on Sunday April 14, 2024 @01:40AM (#40028937)
You keep referring to the magnitude of the vector itself rather than the magnitude of its components.

> Vectors with larger magnitudes have larger magnitudes than vectors with smaller magnitudes do?

Vectors with more dimensions have larger magnitudes than vectors with fewer components, for the same average magnitude of the components. The distance between the origin and (1,1) is less than the distance between the origin and (1,1,1) even though the components in both cases all have magnitude 1.

Re:Identical twins both grew up with autism, but took differ... by SiempreViernes on Sunday April 14, 2024 @04:24AM (#40029597)
I think their point boils down to the fact that you can require that all vectors have the same magnitude, irrespective of the dimensionality of the space, which is of course true.

The next step is them doing a black knight and pretending they didn't put in the requirement by hand.

Re:Identical twins both grew up with autism, but took differ... by thaumasiotes on Sunday April 14, 2024 @07:00AM (#40030252)
Here's what you said:

> Your last comment is completely incorrect, [random gibberish]

Here's what you were referring to:

>> If you stick to the first quadrant / octant / whatever n-dimensional division of space where all coordinates are positive... I don't think the number of dimensions makes any difference there either? Any two vectors define a plane (or a line, or, if they're both zero, a point), so two vectors in a 500-dimensional space can't be farther apart from each other than is possible for two vectors in a 2-dimensional space. Those 500-dimensional vectors are already embedded in a 2-dimensional space.

All of those statements are, obviously, true. What did you think was incorrect?

Re:Identical twins both grew up with autism, but took differ... by thaumasiotes on Sunday April 14, 2024 @06:57AM (#40030244)
> Vectors with more dimensions have larger magnitudes than vectors with fewer components, for the same average magnitude of the components.

Is this related to something that's been said so far?

>> [sidethread] The next step is them doing a black knight and pretending they didn't put in the requirement by hand.

Obviously, I didn't. It was already there before I made my first comment. Look up:

>>> Two complex numbers can have the same magnitude & be very far apart.

The only thing we've ever been discussing is what can happen between vectors of the same magnitude. But if you want to discuss what can happen between vectors of different magnitudes... everything I said is still true! It's easy to construct low-dimensional vectors with high magnitudes, and in fact the construction that I already gave, of interpreting large vectors within a space defined partially by themselves, will do the job.

Re:Identical twins both grew up with autism, but took differ... by AnthonyMouse on Sunday April 14, 2024 @03:56PM (#40033921)
> Is this related to something that's been said so far?

Are you considering what all of this is supposed to be an analogy for?

Suppose autism has different components, something like this:

https://getgoally.com/blog/autism-spectrum-wheel/

You rate someone on each factor using the same scale, e.g. a real number from 0 to 1, or a scale of 1 to 10. The scale is arbitrary but consistent.

Then someone whose "average" rating is 0.5 on a scale of 0 to 1 can be farther away from someone else whose "average" rating is 0.5 when there are more factors. On a linear scale two people both at 0.5 have distance zero. On a two dimensional scale, you could have one at (0, 1) and one at (1, 0) and then each of their averages is still 0.5 but their distance is ~1.4.

That's what we're talking about.

Re:Identical twins both grew up with autism, but took differ... by Tarq0n on Saturday April 13, 2024 @10:22AM (#40023333)
The question is whether each dimension is equally clinically significant, or equally impactful to quality of life. Talking about magnitude is definitely taking the analogy too far, as temping as it is.
Re:Identical twins both grew up with autism, but took differ... by kenjackson on Saturday April 13, 2024 @10:22AM (#40023334)
I think the point is that the magnitude being the same doesn’t necessarily mean their distance is zero. I think the rest isn’t relevant.
Re:Identical twins both grew up with autism, but took differ... by pfannkuchen on Saturday April 13, 2024 @09:19AM (#40022960)
That name would make for a really interesting bar.
Re:Identical twins both grew up with autism, but took differ... by bitwize on Saturday April 13, 2024 @09:29AM (#40023013)
Kinda like how color spectra have multiple dimensions as well: RGB, HSV, YCbCr, etc.
Re:Identical twins both grew up with autism, but took differ... by card_zero on Saturday April 13, 2024 @10:02AM (#40023213)
Well color spaces, not spectra, technically. Brown isn't in the spectrum.
Re:Identical twins both grew up with autism, but took differ... by hiciu on Saturday April 13, 2024 @08:54AM (#40022843)
That's exactly the issue, it is not as simple as "less" or "more" "autistic". I don't think I'll be able to explain it properly with my own words using english, sorry.

I'll just quote nih.gov:

> Autism is known as a “spectrum” disorder because there is wide variation in the type and severity of symptoms people experience.

and wikipedia:

> Autism is clinically regarded as a spectrum disorder, meaning that it can manifest very differently in each person. For example, some are nonspeaking, while others have proficient spoken language. Because of this, there is wide variation in the support needs of people across the autism spectrum.

and maybe take a look at this list:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spectrum_disorder#Types_of_spe...

Re:Identical twins both grew up with autism, but took differ... by kthartic on Saturday April 13, 2024 @07:13PM (#40027077)
I see, wikipedia's definition is quite informative here. Thanks
Re:Identical twins both grew up with autism, but took differ... by astura on Saturday April 13, 2024 @09:44AM (#40023092)
I mean... that's literally the definition of "spectrum"

From a few random dictionaries:

>2. used to classify something, or suggest that it can be classified, in terms of its position on a scale between two extreme or opposite points.

>a range of different positions, opinions, etc. between two extreme points

?????

Re:Identical twins both grew up with autism, but took differ... by crisply5706 on Saturday April 13, 2024 @11:17AM (#40023659)
https://getgoally.com/blog/autism-spectrum-wheel

The naïve assumption is the spectrum is a binary more/less autistic. It very much is not.

Re:Identical twins both grew up with autism, but took differ... by burkaman on Saturday April 13, 2024 @09:45AM (#40023108)
That is what spectrum means, and some autistic people say the word is not applicable to the concept of autism.
Re:Identical twins both grew up with autism, but took differ... by twobitshifter on Saturday April 13, 2024 @09:51AM (#40023140)
Yes, that’s true from the dictionary and the article is one place where its use makes sense. However, usually people say “on the spectrum“ to mean someone is a high functioning autistic. That is something that isn’t a helpful definition.
Re:Identical twins both grew up with autism, but took differ... by quickslowdown on Saturday April 13, 2024 @03:40PM (#40025440)
This has always driven me nuts. We're ALL "on the spectrum," if you just stop and think for a moment before saying it. That's what a spectrum is.
Re:Identical twins both grew up with autism, but took differ... by plorg on Sunday April 14, 2024 @01:03AM (#40028787)
If you tried to quantify different people's experience of autism you could maybe compare people by the amplitude of their symptoms (say a maximum or average), but you'd get a much better idea of the range of experiences with something like a Fourier transform. Imagine different symptoms are different wavelengths of light. Different people experience certain elements of the constellation of symptoms that we can "autism" to different degrees. And the goal is not really to get anyone to be "less autistic", but to help them live in society (or to build a society that allows them to better join in).
Re:Identical twins both grew up with autism, but took differ... by atombender on Sunday April 14, 2024 @05:31AM (#40029897)
The medical use of the word "spectrum" doesn't always describe a continuum, but classification criteria along multiple dimensions. Autism is no longer considered a "position on a scale".
Re:Identical twins both grew up with autism, but took differ... by quickslowdown on Saturday April 13, 2024 @03:38PM (#40025417)
Yeah, I would read this and assume the 2 ends of the spectrum are "autistic and not-autistic," considering what the word "spectrum" means.
Re:Identical twins both grew up with autism, but took differ... by ordu on Sunday April 14, 2024 @07:31AM (#40030374)
"autistic and not-autistic" is not a spectrum, it can be described as a scalar value. A spectrum appears when you have many values (maybe continuum) with different values. Frequency spectrum is a good example: it shows you a lot of frequencies that intermixed in a signal.
Re:Identical twins both grew up with autism, but took differ... by Anotheroneagain on Sunday April 14, 2024 @08:56AM (#40030763)
Please stop spreading such lies, if anything, they don't like being grouped together with obviously disabled people.