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Re:Python vs. Processing as a First Language by pdonis on Monday May 21, 2012 @01:36AM (#4001444)
One thing that struck me as odd was that the author apparently is not an experienced programmer, but she tried to learn Python from the tutorials designed for experienced programmers; she saw that there was a list of tutorials for non-programmers, but she "didn't look at any of those". Why not?

One possible answer is that the term "programming" means something somewhat different to the author than it does to, for example, me. When I look at the Python tutorial topics, even those for non-programmers, I see stuff that looks like programming: loops, conditionals, generators, etc. But the author apparently saw a lot of stuff that didn't seem to have much to do with what she was interested in: getting the computer to do something cool. Processing apparently gave her an easier way to do that.

To me, getting the computer to do something cool, in and of itself, is not necessarily "programming". For example, the beginner's tutorial for Processing that the author links to tells you to type the following into the editor: "ellipse(50, 50, 80, 80);". This, of course, draws an ellipse. Cool! But this, to me, isn't "programming"; it's just invoking a magic incantation to get the computer to draw an ellipse. "Programming" is what the person did who wrote the code that interprets that line you typed and figures out what to draw and where.

It's quite possible that this is just me; maybe most people are OK with using the word "programming" to describe something that doesn't seem like programming to me. But word choice aside, I am not trying to say that only what I call "programming" is worth doing. I think the point is more that maybe "programming" is too narrow a term to describe what many people are trying to do when they want to get the computer to do something cool.

Re:Python vs. Processing as a First Language by CJefferson on Monday May 21, 2012 @04:46AM (#4001931)
Having taught programming by Logo, think of 'ellipse(50,50,80,80)' as 'printf("hello world\n")'. Enthusiatic people will quickly figure out how to wrap that ellipse in a loop, add some variables, maybe find the equivalent of rand(), and now we are suddenly much closer to "real programming".

While some would think this is a horrible thing to say, I would say when teaching programming, the single most important thing is "amount of work required to do something the user feels is interesting". Once they are interested and understand variables, loops, and functions, then teaching them proper habits and "proper languages" is much easier.

Re:Python vs. Processing as a First Language by gaius on Monday May 21, 2012 @07:32AM (#4002314)
It's like this in diving, there are basically two schools of thought, which I will refer to as PADI and BSAC (I am qualified in and have dived with both).

The PADI way gets you into the sea ASAP. It's only really safe to do this in benign conditions (e.g. warm, clear, non-tidal water in the Red Sea). But it quickly gets people hooked on what diving has to offer, and you can add in skills for hostile waters (cold, murky, strong currents, deeper, penetrating wrecks and caves, etc) later if and when you need to.

The BSAC way involves spending 6 months to a year in a training pool. You have to really, really want to dive to stick with it. They've stopped it now, but they used to test people by having them e.g. tread water for 3 minutes holding a weight belt above their heads (the A-test) which you will never ever have to actually do as a diver. It's meant to produce divers who can handle fairly hostile conditions on their very first sea dive (tho' IMHO it doesn't).

Re:Python vs. Processing as a First Language by gailcarm on Monday May 21, 2012 @09:52PM (#4005890)
I actually am an experienced programmer - just not in Python yet. ;) I wrote the post from the perspective of someone with a keen interest in computer science education. My specialty is teaching beginners, whether it's a week-long course for eighth graders or non-major undergrads. This context is likely not clear in the post on its own.

When learning Python, I looked at it through the lens of someone just getting started with programming. While it's not really possible to do this in a completely unbiased way, that was where my musings came from.

In terms of your thoughts on programming: I find them interesting. I think it's a reasonable perspective. For the audiences I work with, it can be important to hook students early on with the cool stuff or else you might lose them too early. I personally hope we can then get them into what you define as programming, but even if we can't, at least they leave with something.

Re:Python vs. Processing as a First Language by pdonis on Monday May 21, 2012 @10:41PM (#4006023)
> This context is likely not clear in the post on its own.

No, it wasn't--knowing the context actually makes your post quite a bit more thought-provoking. What languages have you programmed in?

Re:Python vs. Processing as a First Language by gailcarm on Tuesday May 22, 2012 @09:34AM (#4007691)
I admit I get used to writing with the assumption that my readers know where I'm coming from. This is the first link that has ended up here (I didn't even know it for a while!), and it's a good reminder for me to ensure I work the context in.

The easiest way to list the languages I know is to share this: http://gailcarmichael.com/work/technical

Re:Python vs. Processing as a First Language by disgruntledphd2 on Monday May 21, 2012 @06:37AM (#4002177)
I also don't know why he had difficulty with the Python tutorial. For me, as someone who only knew R when I read it, it helped me get up and running with Python very quickly. I actually think its one of the best introductory tutorials I've read for any programming language (and as I have an awful tendency to attempt to learn too many things at once, I've read a lot of programming tutorials).
Re:Python vs. Processing as a First Language by gailcarm on Monday May 21, 2012 @09:59PM (#4005914)
I don't mind the tutorials myself since I have 10 years of experience (mix of undergrad, industry, and grad school), but I was trying to analyze the language from the perspective of a beginner. I figured it wasn't totally fair to see explanations in the experienced programmer's tutorials, hence trying out that book.
Re:Python vs. Processing as a First Language by simonh on Monday May 21, 2012 @03:37AM (#4001755)
By the same logic 'Hello World' isn't programming, but I agree with you to a point. A simple one-line hello world or ellipse drawing program is little different from typing in DOS or shell commands. 'Real' programming is implementing logic.