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Re:Former University of Iowa Hospital employee used fake ide... by Repulsion9513 on Friday April 05, 2024 @04:52AM (#39940162)
You do realize that when you're making new laws you can make those laws say anything you want, right?
Re:Former University of Iowa Hospital employee used fake ide... by lo_zamoyski on Friday April 05, 2024 @08:30AM (#39941586)
Not exactly. The idea that law can be arbitrary is a severe and tyrannical perversion of the law. Human law is a circumstantial determination of the moral law (or ethical principles, if you will) and the demands of justice. Lex iniusta non est lex (an unjust law is not a law). So we are not at complete liberty to legislate arbitrarily just because we think we have the power to do so. Indeed, we run the risk of passing laws that aren't laws at all, but only have the appearance of law.

Furthermore, determining the law is not the same as determining the outcome of having that law on the books. The law is permissive about many immoral behaviors, at least in part because the enforcement of laws regulating such behaviors would cause greater harm than the behavior in question. Prudential judgement among lawmakers is necessary to determine what should and should not be regulated.

Re:Former University of Iowa Hospital employee used fake ide... by abecedarius on Friday April 05, 2024 @10:56AM (#39943160)
Downvoters: this is a nice nutshell statement of a thoroughly respectable thesis, relevant to the thread. I like Hayek's Law, Legislation, and Liberty for a long version, if you don't understand how it can possibly be reasonable.
Re:Former University of Iowa Hospital employee used fake ide... by sokoloff on Friday April 05, 2024 @06:59AM (#39940904)
In a system of government founded on a Constitution, those laws have to follow the Constitution (at least in an eventually-consistent way). (Or the Constitution must be amended, or a revolution has to happen; neither of the latter two are possible by a legislature acting alone.)
Re:Former University of Iowa Hospital employee used fake ide... by Retric on Friday April 05, 2024 @08:02AM (#39941325)
Changing the constitution is changing the law.
Re:Former University of Iowa Hospital employee used fake ide... by lo_zamoyski on Friday April 05, 2024 @08:37AM (#39941648)
You don't need a constitution for this purpose, even though a constitution can have practical benefit. And furthermore, you'd only be passing the buck by appealing to a constitution. I could just ask whether the constitution is arbitrary, and in this case, you could not appeal to anything to ground or constrain it. The ultimate ground for the written law is the moral law, such that the first is a determination of the second given the circumstances of a given jurisdiction. Note also the distinction between lex and ius.
Re:Former University of Iowa Hospital employee used fake ide... by sokoloff on Friday April 05, 2024 @08:41AM (#39941682)
It’s not that you need a constitution, but rather than many democratic governments have a constitution and that must be considered in the context of “when you're making new laws you can make those laws say anything you want”.
Re:Former University of Iowa Hospital employee used fake ide... by actionfromafar on Friday April 05, 2024 @05:07AM (#39940289)
But you can't make them do anything you want.
Re:Former University of Iowa Hospital employee used fake ide... by spacecadet on Friday April 05, 2024 @06:30AM (#39940773)
You can, its called a tank.
Re:Former University of Iowa Hospital employee used fake ide... by actionfromafar on Friday April 05, 2024 @06:52AM (#39940869)
Even that, can't make them do anything you want. It makes them die.
Re:Former University of Iowa Hospital employee used fake ide... by dmoy on Friday April 05, 2024 @11:35AM (#39943690)
Tanks can't go door to door on enough of the populace.

If it's a law that's unpopular enough, it's not enforceable pretty much anywhere. Even less so in the US, because of the staggering number of civilian owned guns.

Re:Former University of Iowa Hospital employee used fake ide... by spacecadet on Friday April 05, 2024 @11:51AM (#39943910)
Tank go through door
Re:Former University of Iowa Hospital employee used fake ide... by dmoy on Friday April 05, 2024 @01:42PM (#39945089)
Right, but there's too many doors

Tanks can go through some of the doors, especially as long as you know there isn't a basement. So if you have a small segment of a population you need to go through doors on, sure.

But if it's enough of the population, then tanks don't work to enforce the laws.

Re:Former University of Iowa Hospital employee used fake ide... by spacecadet on Friday April 05, 2024 @02:48PM (#39945714)
I dunno, you roll out all of the armored tank division, it doesn't have have to be 1:1...
Re:Former University of Iowa Hospital employee used fake ide... by dmoy on Friday April 05, 2024 @03:37PM (#39946238)
Sure but there's like 5000 total tanks, and 80,000,000 houses (not including multi unit buildings).

It doesn't scale.

The military as a whole doesn't work well as a police trying to enforce laws, but even if it did, it wouldn't be the tanks. It would be door to door with infantry.

Re:Former University of Iowa Hospital employee used fake ide... by dragonwriter on Friday April 05, 2024 @03:50PM (#39946403)
> Sure but there's like 5000 total tanks,

And 7000 IFVs, and 15,000 APCs, and 25,000 Mine Protected Vehicles, and also a bunch of fixed and rotary winged piloted and unpiloted aircraft carrying PGMs, all of which can go through specifically chosen doors, and, as with the tanks, all of which can send something through many specifically chosen doors (or windows, walls, whatever) in a fairly short period of time.

Not good for arresting people, bringing them to trial, and providing due process, but that's not the only means of raising the expected cost of non-compliance with the law so as to coerce compliance.

Re:Former University of Iowa Hospital employee used fake ide... by ben_w on Saturday April 06, 2024 @06:34PM (#39956277)
I suspect the US army would very upset with a government that tried to use it to enforce an unpopular law.

It's a volunteer force. Might simply refuse the orders as unlawful, might repeat 1861, depending on the law.

I'm told "fragging" comes from the weapon of choice used by conscripts in Vietnam against unpopular commanding officers.

Re:Former University of Iowa Hospital employee used fake ide... by spacecadet on Monday April 08, 2024 @10:28AM (#39970091)
I was only trying to be funny, but I agree.
Re:Former University of Iowa Hospital employee used fake ide... by spacecadet on Monday April 08, 2024 @10:30AM (#39970108)
I know, but now Im interested in the effective fear factor of a single M1 against an American suburb.