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Re:Anatomy of a credit card rewards program by oezi on Thursday April 04, 2024 @02:35PM (#39934219)
Rewards programs are stupid for consumers. They cause higher prices for everyone (even for the rewards recipients). I am fine with merchants keeping the profit, because for most categories of products that I buy there are working markets and every % of profit is turned to lower prices in the end.
Re:Anatomy of a credit card rewards program by abalone on Thursday April 04, 2024 @06:29PM (#39936596)
Why do you say they cause higher prices for rewards recipients? Is there evidence of this?
Re:Anatomy of a credit card rewards program by oezi on Friday April 05, 2024 @02:29AM (#39939274)
The cost of running the rewards scheme must be paid. It is like a tax you incur. Also the cost for you to participate can be substantial in the form of time/attention. All for 1%-2% rebate.

Many rewards programs are also predatory in the way they want to sell your data so you are targeted by advertisers for products you wouldn't buy otherwise.

Re:Anatomy of a credit card rewards program by abalone on Saturday April 06, 2024 @12:10AM (#39949873)
But if the tax is refunded to rewards recipients then it does not result in net higher prices for them.

Granted, some slice of it is kept by the issuers, but it turns out issuers mostly make money on interest not interchange.[1]

[1] https://www.valuepenguin.com/how-do-credit-card-companies-ma...

Re:Anatomy of a credit card rewards program by t0mas88 on Saturday April 06, 2024 @05:11AM (#39951097)
The recipients need to think about were to shop, switch cards once in a while, all extra work to get 1% back of the 2% that the card issuers extract from the economy.

Meanwhile in Europe the issuers are capable of running a profitable business on only 0.3% fees (and much lower for debit). So even though you may think rewards programs are nice, they are in the end costing you more, not giving you free money.

Re:Anatomy of a credit card rewards program by WhiteOwlLion on Tuesday April 16, 2024 @02:21AM (#40048900)
If you're only getting back 1% to 2%, you're losing out on better cash back cards.
Re:Anatomy of a credit card rewards program by eek2121 on Thursday April 04, 2024 @08:01PM (#39937301)
Until pricing in the US exceeds the rest of the developed world, you won't convince me of this. After all, we are among the top countries that use credit cards.
Re:Anatomy of a credit card rewards program by sofixa on Friday April 05, 2024 @05:02AM (#39940242)
Do you have examples of things bought with credit cards that are cheaper in the US compared to, say, the EU? Even having in mind that most European countries have a ~20% VAT on many products, while US sales taxes are usually lower (less than ~15% IIRC), in my personal experience the US is more expensive for most everyday consumer goods even than France.
Re:Anatomy of a credit card rewards program by refurb on Friday April 05, 2024 @02:25AM (#39939253)
Rewards programs cause higher prices just like “free delivery” or “no questions asked returns for 6 months” does.

It’s just another cost of business. Sometimes you bump up the price to account for it, sometimes you take the hit in profit in exchange for more volume hand more profit).

Very rarely do businesses do “cost plus” pricing. They usually charge what they can.

Which is why prices are sticky.

For the businesses that price based on cost alone they usually reject credit cards all together. Long ago I shopped at a computer parts store that had the best prices and they were all focused on volume - no further discounts, no credit cards, no free delivery.

Re:Anatomy of a credit card rewards program by ddfs123 on Friday April 05, 2024 @03:16AM (#39939549)
But if that's true then why Debit cards are not qualified for reward programs ?
Re:Anatomy of a credit card rewards program by twoodfin on Sunday April 07, 2024 @07:32AM (#39960085)
Because a few years ago, Congress gave into merchants’ demands and capped debit card interchange fees.
Re:Anatomy of a credit card rewards program by jacurtis on Saturday April 06, 2024 @12:34AM (#39949981)
> They cause higher prices for everyone (even for the rewards recipients).

Honestly no. Price is relative. The sticker price might change, but the effective price depends on the customer. Largely generalized: Low-credit customers essentially subsidize the cost for high-credit customers. Let me explain:

So let's call the current price: p.

- The cash customer pays: p

- The rewards card user pays p - 1% (because they get cashback)

- The mid-level rewards customer pays p - 2%

- The premium reward users pay p - 5%

Now let's say that reward cards are banned. No more rewards cards. Let's call the new price (after rewards cards and their associated fees are removed) as 'n'. What would happen?

Scenario A: No Change

Now I believe if you got rid of rewards cards, then n = p. Merchants wouldn't lower prices, they would just keep them the same and pocket the difference. So now everyone loses, except for cash customers who are unchanged. But everyone pays p, which is at best the same as before, and at worse 5%+ more expensive by getting rid of rewards cards.

Scenario B: Utopia, the Merchants Care

Let's make the argument you are making, which is that maybe the merchants would be nice and give us a cut of the rewards card savings. This would save them maybe 1%. I suspect slightly less on average, but let's call it 1% to be generous.

So in scenario B: n = p - 1%

Yes cash customers win! They pay 1% less than before. But the majority of customers still lose. Cash customers are the only winners. Normal rewards card users are paying the same amount they were before. The bell curve of card users are probably paying 1% more, while the high-end premium card users are paying 4%+ more than before. The majority of consumer still lose, only cash customers come out ahead.

This scenario of course assumes that merchants are generous and pass on the savings. If this did happen, you would likely notice savings for a year or two at most, due to economics and market forces.

Eventually, like I said above. The price just becomes normalized and the price is the price once again. House or car prices go up slightly at first because of more money in customer pockets, employers are less pressured to give out high raises, so maybe income raises are 0.5% on average lower that year, and 0.3% lower the next year and 0.2% lower the year following (which actually makes it look like raises are increasing YoY other than the first year). This continues and 3 years later that 1% gain is normalized into the economy and becomes the new baseline and we are back where we started.

So no, everyone does not lose with rewards cards. There are winners and losers. You could argue that lower income customers (the ones most likely to pay with cash or low-end credit cards) pay the price for the higher-income customers (the ones most likely to have 800+ credit scores with premium cards).

So, largely generalized you could argue that low-credit customers subsidize the price of goods for high-credit customers. I think that's a more accurate argument. And to be clear, I'm not stating that it's fair, just that it's accurate.

Re:Anatomy of a credit card rewards program by Dylan16807 on Saturday April 06, 2024 @01:06AM (#39950135)
Your math for scenario B doesn't work.

If the average over all transactions was 1%, then the cash customers must have greatly outnumbered the 2-5% reward customers. In that case, the majority of consumers aren't losing. The majority benefits or sees no change.

If a majority of customers were in the 2-5% range, then the new prices must be more than 1% cheaper, maybe even 2% cheaper. So now all the cash customers and the 1% customers benefit. And the 2% customers might see no difference.