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Re:Is the Sun Conscious? [pdf] by edgyquant on Friday March 29, 2024 @09:08AM (#39863654)
I’d say most of them have and these substances prove nothing close to what you’re suggesting. Yes they hint that the whole universe, at least our ideas of it, being an illusion made up by your brain. This isn’t consciousness though, your awareness remains the same it is simply your perception that is changed by mind altering drugs and none of these philosophers would argue your perception isn’t a product of the body.

Awareness != perception. A lot of people itt are mixing up consciousness, experience, with brain activity like trains of thought or external perception. Try meditating for a bit and you see that these are not what you are, you are not your thoughts.

Re:Is the Sun Conscious? [pdf] by cess11 on Friday March 29, 2024 @09:53AM (#39864121)
Aware is germanic, perceive is latin, it's the same concept. Maybe meditation doesn't have the results you think it has?

As for what drug experiences can tell us, I didn't claim they say anything about "the whole universe". They can however tell us other things. For one, LSD causes parts of the brain that usually work in a synchronised manner, like a system of cooperating parts, to loosen from each other, which is probably why one can experience a loss of coherence in perception of self and the immediate surroundings. At the very least it tells us that this molecule interacts with the biological foundation for experiencing the world as coherent, understandable, and when we're under its influence this experience is distorted or dissolved.

This tears into the feelings foundational to big religions, the perception of the universe as created, ordered, having a telos, can easily be temporarily disrupted, and hence we know that this 'wisdom' is contingent on us ignoring the possibility that it is a product of evolution rather than a divine gift or insight gained through spiritual exercise. You could of course project magical thinking onto such molecules and consider them demonic or whatever, but good luck keeping that up under capitalism without being victimised by conspiracy theory grifters, marketing specialists and so on.

Re:Is the Sun Conscious? [pdf] by edgyquant on Friday March 29, 2024 @11:22AM (#39865156)
Your pedantic preaching about language is irrelevant to anything I said, nothing of which was invented by me it’s simply push back against uninformed things you said about others, thus I see no reason to engage with you any further.
Re:Is the Sun Conscious? [pdf] by cess11 on Friday March 29, 2024 @11:47AM (#39865481)
I quipped about etymology as an invite for you to make it clearer what difference you were refering to.

If you find that so insensitive that you can't continue the conversation that's fine with me.

Re:Is the Sun Conscious? [pdf] by Workaccount2 on Friday March 29, 2024 @10:06AM (#39864277)
Psychedelics are very likely the basis of many religions, including Christianity.

Having magical religious experiences on LSD is practically a meme, so I am not sure what would lead you to suggest otherwise.

Re:Is the Sun Conscious? [pdf] by cess11 on Friday March 29, 2024 @10:30AM (#39864549)
Christianity was founded as a monastic, ascetic, apocalyptic sect in antique judaism, and got the shape recognisable to most of us through roman imperial politics. If you think those jews or romans used psychedelics I'd like to know why.

There might be traces of cannabis in the hebrew Bible but it's not a common theme and pretty much every word this idea is usually based on could be a reference to something else.

There are religions using psychedelics, some of them probably quite old, but none of the big, popular ones do. In part this is explained by european (and similar) traditions surrounding government, which tends to be very suspicious of strong feelings and competition from drug use when it comes to the loyalty of their subjects, so for a religion to become a societal institution it has to get rid of the drugs if there are any.

Edit: As for modern interpretations of e.g. LSD as a religious experience says more about cultural poverty and millenia of ideological subjugation than the experience itself.

Re:Is the Sun Conscious? [pdf] by Workaccount2 on Friday March 29, 2024 @11:03AM (#39864926)
There is a strong case to be made that Jesus was basically a rip of Dionysus; ritual cannibal sacrifice (eat my body and drink my blood), son of zeus (son of god), born to a virgin when visited by an eagle (born to virgin mary when visited by a dove), resurrection in the spring (Easter), both turned water into wine, and Dionysus wore a crown of thorns.

Dionysian festivals, although not proven (it's hard to find samples of ancient ritual wine), are strongly suspected to mixed something psychedelic (probably ergot) into wine as part of their ceremonies. Of course, that trance inducing wine was the blood of Dionysus. And how could it not be? You drink it and feel the essence of a god right after (the trip).

Re:Is the Sun Conscious? [pdf] by cess11 on Friday March 29, 2024 @11:49AM (#39865503)
Sounds like pretty shallow Holy Blood, Holy Grail stuff to me.

It is fairly firmly established that roman mystery religion shaped some of early christianity, in particular the Mithras mysteries.

Re:Is the Sun Conscious? [pdf] by Workaccount2 on Friday March 29, 2024 @02:14PM (#39867230)
It's hardly any more conspiratorial than roman influences on Christianity, John the apostle spent a long time in Greece and wrote revelations there. Never mind the Church would actively integrate local cultural iconography into the bible to make it's spread more palpable.
Re:Is the Sun Conscious? [pdf] by cess11 on Friday March 29, 2024 @04:49PM (#39868840)
Dionysian mysteries were popular in large portions of the Mediterranean at the time. Very little of what you mentioned was unique to dionysian practices and beliefs, so you'd need to have more than the immediate likeness as evidence.

What do you mean by "the Church would actively integrate local cultural iconography into the bible to make it's spread more palpable", can you give some examples of such iconography?

Re:Is the Sun Conscious? [pdf] by Workaccount2 on Friday March 29, 2024 @06:06PM (#39869499)
My goal here isn't construct some theory I cooked up, my goal is to make you aware of scholarly research that links what is assumed to be old psychedelic driven religion with providing many of the inputs to what became christian lore.
Re:Is the Sun Conscious? [pdf] by cess11 on Saturday March 30, 2024 @02:29AM (#39872363)
OK then, maybe name some monographies and articles?
Re:Is the Sun Conscious? [pdf] by booleandilemma on Sunday March 31, 2024 @01:05AM (#39881599)
This comment made me nauseous.