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Re:Boeing chief must have engineering background, Emirates b... by scrollaway on Wednesday March 27, 2024 @06:46AM (#39837463)
Blameless culture is not about dodging responsibility. It’s about that when a process wrongly allowed a human to do X, the process is the issue to fix.

Of course you can go deeper and ask why was this process not done correctly etc but at the end of the day, it’s about actionable changes that ensure mistakes don’t get repeated.

Re:Boeing chief must have engineering background, Emirates b... by robertlagrant on Wednesday March 27, 2024 @06:52AM (#39837505)
Blaming process for everything is a symptom of this mindset. Not everything is a process issue. Process is the only thing you can blame with this mindset, but it will only fix process issues.
Re:Boeing chief must have engineering background, Emirates b... by naavis on Wednesday March 27, 2024 @07:46AM (#39837813)
Everything can be a process. If some individual is truly fully responsible for a screwup, what process allowed the person to get that far?
Re:Boeing chief must have engineering background, Emirates b... by ejb999 on Wednesday March 27, 2024 @08:17AM (#39838053)
I disagree - if 'everything can be a process' we wouldn't need human judgement anywhere - and clearly we clearly still do need humans in the loop - and the reality is the judgement of humans is not all created equal. Some are better than others.
Re:Boeing chief must have engineering background, Emirates b... by qznc on Wednesday March 27, 2024 @02:24PM (#39842789)
A process may include human judgement. I don't get your disagreement.
Re:Boeing chief must have engineering background, Emirates b... by robertlagrant on Wednesday March 27, 2024 @08:00AM (#39837922)
If I as a professional footballer repeatedly foul people, which process is at fault when no one else around me does that?

Unless you just call everything a process: "His childhood was difficult and that's why he fouls people. Let's call his childhood a process."

I think at some point you have to say that some things are not processes, or cannot usefully described as such. Or they devolve into Zeno's paradox.

Re:Boeing chief must have engineering background, Emirates b... by mschuster91 on Wednesday March 27, 2024 @08:19AM (#39838069)
> Unless you just call everything a process: "His childhood was difficult and that's why he fouls people. Let's call his childhood a process."

Well... attempting to prevent stuff like bullying or domestic violence is a worthwhile goal in itself.

For the example of the soccer player, one might also question other incentives (e.g. bonuses tied to winning games no-matter-what), or why a player with a known history was hired in the first place.

Re:Boeing chief must have engineering background, Emirates b... by robertlagrant on Wednesday March 27, 2024 @10:33AM (#39839700)
> Well... attempting to prevent stuff like bullying or domestic violence is a worthwhile goal in itself.

Obviously a worthwhile goal, but not a process failure on the part of the football team.

Re:Boeing chief must have engineering background, Emirates b... by mlrtime on Wednesday March 27, 2024 @08:21AM (#39838085)
A foul is a statistic that is easily countable. If goals are greater than fouls then it may make sense to keep that footballer anyway.

I hope we aren't using football as an analogy for avionic engineering with 1000's of people.

Re:Boeing chief must have engineering background, Emirates b... by sokoloff on Wednesday March 27, 2024 @09:56AM (#39839151)
> If I as a professional footballer repeatedly foul people, which process is at fault when no one else around me does that?

The process that hasn't cut you from the football team.

Re:Boeing chief must have engineering background, Emirates b... by MerManMaid on Wednesday March 27, 2024 @06:38PM (#39845448)
"The road to hell is paved with good intentions"

I mean in theory, you're absolutely right but so rarely does it ever actually shake out that way. It seems like corporations continue to make the same mistakes while simultaneously being held less and less accountable.

Literally hundreds of people have died due to Boeing's negligence recently and the prevailing opinion seems to be that no one is ultimately going to be held accountable. (at least not meaningfully)

Ideals are great and all but if it results in zero accountability when hundreds of people die, maybe its time for us to re-evaluate.