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Re:Libraries struggle to afford e-books, seek new laws in fi... by llm_trw on Saturday March 16, 2024 @09:52AM (#39725931)
>Free market hardly work there.

You literally have a government granted monopoly on producing books. How can you even bring in the free market into this?

Re:Libraries struggle to afford e-books, seek new laws in fi... by thaumasiotes on Saturday March 16, 2024 @10:06AM (#39726041)
I mean, the free market is working pretty well.

http://libgen.rs/

The government-granted monopoly, not so much.

Re:Libraries struggle to afford e-books, seek new laws in fi... by aleph_minus_one on Saturday March 16, 2024 @10:29AM (#39726259)
> I mean, the free market is working pretty well.

> http://libgen.rs/

Exactly. What a lot of economists tend to "forget" is that markets also include black/illegal markets and markets that are hardly controllable by the government.

Re:Libraries struggle to afford e-books, seek new laws in fi... by j_maffe on Saturday March 16, 2024 @05:24PM (#39729608)
Unfortunately many are misled to believe that pirating books published by cartels is unethical.
Re:Libraries struggle to afford e-books, seek new laws in fi... by aleph_minus_one on Saturday March 16, 2024 @06:25PM (#39730027)
> Unfortunately many are misled to believe that pirating books published by cartels is unethical.

It's not a question of ethical vs unethical, but about which evil you consider to be the worse.

Re:Libraries struggle to afford e-books, seek new laws in fi... by j_maffe on Saturday March 16, 2024 @06:30PM (#39730062)
Yeah, I agree. I think it can be a case-by-case situation depending on both the reader and the publishere/author. An undergrad needing a course textbook that's published by a monopolistic cartel with a 300% markup? Absolutely. For well-paid worker in a developed country buying a novel written by a niche author? probably not the right thing to do.
Re:Libraries struggle to afford e-books, seek new laws in fi... by akho on Tuesday March 19, 2024 @03:31PM (#39759407)
It's very unclear how book sales translate into income for authors. You are rewarding middlemen; these middlemen have a role that may or may not be important these days.
Re:Libraries struggle to afford e-books, seek new laws in fi... by c0pium on Saturday March 16, 2024 @05:49PM (#39729794)
Please explain your alternative mechanism for compensating the author for their work.
Re:Libraries struggle to afford e-books, seek new laws in fi... by j_maffe on Saturday March 16, 2024 @06:00PM (#39729862)
I'm not proposing an alternative mechanism. I think people who can comfortably afford to pay the asked price for a book should of course do just that. On the other hand, for the billions of those who do not have that privilege, I wholeheartedly recommend piracy. It is of no cost to the author/publisher (since they weren't going to pay anyway) and of tremendous positive impact for equality and social mobility for the community. In a perfect world piracy would be an unfair and unnecessary venture. In this one, for many people it is absolutely justified.
Re:Libraries struggle to afford e-books, seek new laws in fi... by ClumsyPilot on Saturday March 16, 2024 @01:03PM (#39727546)
How is this a market if Boone is paying? If anything, this is communism?

You can’t even have a market of IP without government granted ownership of IP.

This tired old trope that Government vs market doesn’t work here

Re:Libraries struggle to afford e-books, seek new laws in fi... by AnthonyMouse on Saturday March 16, 2024 @01:57PM (#39727987)
The bad communism is when the government takes your stuff and you don't have it anymore. This is "communism" in the same way that everyone being able to breathe the air or speak English without paying a proprietor for the right is "communism". This is often a motte and bailey that communists use, but you're attacking the motte.

You're essentially arguing that there isn't a market for air. But there is. This is the market served by submarines and firefighting gear and spacecraft and HEPA filters.

If no one had a monopoly over copies, you'd still have a market to supply them, they'd just generally be really cheap and the supplier would be someone like Cloudflare. Likewise there would still be a market for creating works, because people would pay for commissions. There might not be as many of them, but there would still be a market.

Re:Libraries struggle to afford e-books, seek new laws in fi... by WalterBright on Saturday March 16, 2024 @05:47PM (#39729780)
> You can’t even have a market of IP without government granted ownership of IP.

Sure you can. See Germany in the 19th century with no IP protections. Business and prosperity boomed!

Consider also the incredible success of open source software.

Re:Libraries struggle to afford e-books, seek new laws in fi... by thaumasiotes on Saturday March 16, 2024 @11:23PM (#39731657)
> You can’t even have a market of IP without government granted ownership of IP.

What on earth are you thinking? For essentially all of human history, every work of art was produced for the market, and it was impossible to own any IP.

Re:Libraries struggle to afford e-books, seek new laws in fi... by ClumsyPilot on Sunday March 17, 2024 @04:40AM (#39732904)
I mean digital - of course you can have a market for physical things.
Re:Libraries struggle to afford e-books, seek new laws in fi... by thaumasiotes on Sunday March 17, 2024 @08:42AM (#39734104)
Songs are not physical things, but that has never stopped them from being produced for the market. Same goes for stories, and for all other forms of oral content. These are not things that we've ever been short of.
Re:Libraries struggle to afford e-books, seek new laws in fi... by ClumsyPilot on Sunday March 17, 2024 @02:46PM (#39736870)
How could you possibly arrive at this conclusion? Think of the most famous stories / literature works before year 1500 - myths of Ancient Greece, the bible, ancient folklore about fairy folk - none of it was produced for a market of any kind.

You are unfairly taking credit for the fundamental human need of self expression, and assigning it to your preferred ideological position.

Can you name 5 famous stories, before year 1500, that were made ‘for the market’?

Even penicillin was not created for the market. Most scientific discoveries weren’t.

Re:Libraries struggle to afford e-books, seek new laws in fi... by thaumasiotes on Monday March 18, 2024 @12:25AM (#39740515)
> How could you possibly arrive at this conclusion?

Because I know what it means to create something for the market?

> Can you name 5 famous stories, before year 1500, that were made ‘for the market’?

Given that I've already pointed out that all such stories were made for the market, how do you expect me to answer this?

Can I name five famous stories from before the year 1500?

The Tale of Cupid and Psyche

The Shahnameh

Nüwa Knocks a Hole in the Sky

The Divine Comedy

The Epic of Gilgamesh

> myths of Ancient Greece, the bible, ancient folklore about fairy folk - none of it was produced for a market of any kind.

As I have already pointed out, all of these were produced for a market. Why would you state otherwise? What do you think it means to offer something on a market? (Why do you think the general term for the space where these things live is "the marketplace of ideas"?)

> Even penicillin was not created for the market. Most scientific discoveries weren’t.

Penicillin wasn't created at all, as you suggest by calling it a "discovery". But we use it today because it was offered on the market by someone who hoped to receive the rewards that the market would offer for it.

Re:Libraries struggle to afford e-books, seek new laws in fi... by ClumsyPilot on Monday March 18, 2024 @08:53AM (#39743690)
> Given that I've already pointed out that all such stories were made for the market

You made unsubstantiated assertion that lays claim to a millennia of human history. You offered no evidence of any kind.

> I know what it means to create something for the market

Firstly, that that statement itself is debatable. Secondly, one would need extraordinary knowledge of history to make claims about for thousands of stories written across thousands of years.

I cannot help but conclude that you are an ideologue and you believe there is no life outside ‘the market’ and when I write something in my personal blog, or invent a story for my child, that’s ’the market’ too.

I find this level of ideological appropriation repulsive.

Re:Libraries struggle to afford e-books, seek new laws in fi... by harvey9 on Saturday March 16, 2024 @12:59PM (#39727507)
On producing specific books. Nothing to stop me writing a novel with the same themes as yours has.
Re:Libraries struggle to afford e-books, seek new laws in fi... by AnthonyMouse on Saturday March 16, 2024 @01:40PM (#39727860)
If one company has a monopoly on faucets, another has one on pipes, another has one on valves, you're trying to argue that there is plenty of competition for "plumbing supplies" but that doesn't help you if you need a faucet and there's only one supplier.

Notice how your argument, if true, would defeat the point of the monopoly. If there were ten books that were all fungible with one another then each of the suppliers would want to lower prices to increase sales and you'd end up at the marginal cost, which for digital products is zero. And sometimes this even happens -- there is a lot of free-as-in-beer software, free-with-ads news websites etc. But the context of lending libraries is for when that isn't the case. You don't need to get a copy of nginx from the local library because you can get it for free from the authors.

Re:Libraries struggle to afford e-books, seek new laws in fi... by c0pium on Saturday March 16, 2024 @04:55PM (#39729405)
That’s not how this marketplace works at all. A better analogy is to say that BMW has a monopoly on making BMWs, yet they are still forced to compete with Porsche, who has their own monopoly on creating Porsches.

There’s a two-sided marketplace for creative works, where publishers need to get works from creators and license them to customers. They want to maximize their own profits, but they also need to make a certain amount revenue as all methods of distribution have fixed costs.

Re:Libraries struggle to afford e-books, seek new laws in fi... by llm_trw on Saturday March 16, 2024 @06:22PM (#39730004)
Given that book prices are rising faster than _anything else in the economy_ the market place isn't working at all.

Let them eat competition.

Re:Libraries struggle to afford e-books, seek new laws in fi... by c0pium on Saturday March 16, 2024 @09:02PM (#39730916)
Huh? In the United States books have inflated by -0.1% per year since 1997, compared with the overall economy which inflated at 2.46% per year on average during the same period. Because of the stiff competition.

Unless you mean specifically textbooks, which are inflating because piracy has destroyed the demand (the annual revenue of the textbook market is down ~33% since 2014, despite increases in both prices and enrollment in colleges). You can see the causal link here as increases in pricing are lagging decreasing sales. If the prices were driving the decreasing sales you would expect the opposite behavior.

Re:Libraries struggle to afford e-books, seek new laws in fi... by llm_trw on Saturday March 16, 2024 @11:57PM (#39731813)
Why start at 2014?

https://archive.attn.com/stories/1164/heres-exactly-why-coll...

Between 1975 and 2014 college books outpaced inflation over three times.

Re:Libraries struggle to afford e-books, seek new laws in fi... by c0pium on Sunday March 17, 2024 @01:51AM (#39732217)
You should look at that chart a bit more carefully.
Re:Libraries struggle to afford e-books, seek new laws in fi... by AnthonyMouse on Monday March 18, 2024 @01:46PM (#39747526)
> A better analogy is to say that BMW has a monopoly on making BMWs

BMW is a trademark. You can't take a Kia and put a BMW badge on it. You can, in principle, make an exact replica of a particular BMW model and put your own badge on it, and in that sense BMW doesn't have a monopoly on "BMWs" except insofar as some of the parts may be patented or (for the software) copyrighted. But that isn't an analogy, it's the original thing.

Notice what happens when you take the original thing (intellectual property) out of the equation, your statement becomes "Bayer has a monopoly on aspirin", which they don't, because the Aspirin trademark became generic and it's not under patent.

Re:Libraries struggle to afford e-books, seek new laws in fi... by c0pium on Tuesday March 19, 2024 @01:16AM (#39753161)
First, BMW has thousands of patents. They also have trademarks, copyrights, and trade secret manufacturing processes. Second, if you make a non-BMW you can’t legally sell it as a BMW or you’re committing fraud. Third, most of the reason that people buy luxury brands like BMW is actually because of the cachet that the name has, so even if you could make an identical one in Prussia and call it a PMW, it would be a different and less valuable thing. All of which is a long winded way of saying, BMW are the only ones who can make BMWs. Thus they have a monopoly on making BMWs.

Taking intellectual property out of a conversation about intellectual property has predictably strange and totally irrelevant results. Why is that surprising?

Re:Libraries struggle to afford e-books, seek new laws in fi... by harvey9 on Sunday March 17, 2024 @07:09AM (#39733565)
No. I have a monopoly on faucets made to my design, not on faucets generally. Bloomsbury have a monopoly on Harry Potter books, Penguin can still publish Percy Jackson.
Re:Libraries struggle to afford e-books, seek new laws in fi... by xhkkffbf on Sunday March 17, 2024 @11:31AM (#39735125)
Exactly.

This is the same as saying a carpenter has a monopoly on their work. They can sell it to an employer up front by the hour or afterwards as a good. But no one else can come along and take it without paying.

Re:Libraries struggle to afford e-books, seek new laws in fi... by AnthonyMouse on Monday March 18, 2024 @01:39PM (#39747420)
> No. I have a monopoly on faucets made to my design, not on faucets generally.

You can try to subdivide any particular market but you still can't get yourself out of the second half of the post: If the products were actually substitutes then the prices would approach the marginal cost. If they're not, they're not.

College textbooks are an obvious example of this. Anybody can make "math textbook" but only one of them will have the homework problems your professor will assign in them, so you need that one and the publisher has a monopoly.