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Re:German Police Used Only 85 Bullets Against People in 2011 by noonespecial on Sunday May 13, 2012 @04:09AM (#3966344)
I have a different theory, having lived in both places. Police in America seem to be willing to escalate a confrontation or "chase" to almost any level in order to prevent a bad guy from getting away. Where I lived (near DC) a police officer stood in front of a car to prevent an unarmed teenager from leaving an IHOP without paying the bill, when the kids wouldn't stop, he shot up the car, killing a passenger(1).

Sometimes, when the offense is minor its OK to let the bad guy get away. Firing repeatedly at a moving vehicle in a crowded parking lot is never ok, even if someone might get away with murder.

Polizei seemed much more calmly methodical and much less cowboyish. I can't imagine this situation occurring in Germany.

(1)http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/02...

Re:German Police Used Only 85 Bullets Against People in 2011 by brazzy on Sunday May 13, 2012 @04:35AM (#3966397)
I think you're right. It's a common trope in German crime shows on TV to see the police chase a dangerous criminal on foot with their gun drawn and then watch in frustration as they get away - but not shoot at them.

> Sometimes, when the offense is minor its OK to let the bad guy get away.

Especially since, with a bit of methodical work, you usually have a good chance of catching them later.

Re:German Police Used Only 85 Bullets Against People in 2011 by noonespecial on Sunday May 13, 2012 @04:40AM (#3966407)
Indeed. If only cars had some sort of unique identifier attached to them somewhere easily visible so you could simply discover after the fact who owned them...
Re:German Police Used Only 85 Bullets Against People in 2011 by tluyben2 on Sunday May 13, 2012 @05:41AM (#3966521)
In the Netherlands you have to, before you are even allowed to shoot at someone, point the gun in the air, call out "Halt or i'll shoot!" and shoot in the air which you have to repeat 3 times. We had some hilarious TV about that.
Re:German Police Used Only 85 Bullets Against People in 2011 by 38leinad on Sunday May 13, 2012 @06:45AM (#3966651)
I think it is the same for german police. I.e. you at least have to shot in the air once and call out "stop or i will shoot you!". Obviously, this is not necessary if the life of the officer or someone else is at risk.
Re:German Police Used Only 85 Bullets Against People in 2011 by ajuc on Sunday May 13, 2012 @08:25AM (#3966814)
In Poland too. A few years ago police man had to shout "Stop or I'll shoot.", then shoot 3 times in the air, then policeman could shoot in the legs, and only then shoot to kill.

People made fun of this, because when criminal has a gun, he won't be shooting in the air 3 times, nor targeting policeman legs, so law was changed to be less strict about cops shooting.

But we still have strict regulations about "allowed defence". For example courts judged a few times, that man that shot burglar with legal gun he had in his house was guilty of "overstepping allowed defence", because burglar only had knife. It's ridiculus IMHO.

Still - I've never heard or seen a real gun or knife fight in my life, and neither had anybody I know (or at least they had not told me about that). I think it's general tendency, that gun crimes and homicides in general are much less frequent in Europe.

Re:German Police Used Only 85 Bullets Against People in 2011 by tluyben2 on Sunday May 13, 2012 @06:48AM (#3966658)
Obviously; if something is really threatening for yourself or others then of course. But this is not very common as far as I can see. Fleeing the scene is often not a threatening / deadly force situation.
Re:German Police Used Only 85 Bullets Against People in 2011 by sthlm on Sunday May 13, 2012 @08:00AM (#3966771)
Isn't shooting in the air potentially dangerous, since the bullet (assuming straight up in an empty space) will return to the ground with the same velocity it was fired at?
Re:German Police Used Only 85 Bullets Against People in 2011 by rpledge on Sunday May 13, 2012 @08:23AM (#3966810)
No, terminal velocity will limit the fall speed to be much less

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1199/can-a-bullet-f...

Re:German Police Used Only 85 Bullets Against People in 2011 by harshreality on Sunday May 13, 2012 @10:19AM (#3967059)
That link does not say that it's not dangerous. It is less dangerous than a bullet fired at close range, and it is not as likely to be lethal, but it still can be lethal, or cause serious bodily harm, and therefore it is still very dangerous.

Furthermore not all warning shots fired into the air are fired at high enough angles that the bullets decelerate to terminal velocity before hitting something.

Even if it reaches terminal velocity and doesn't hit anyone, in an urban area it can easily hit someone's property and cause property damage to roofs windows or walls.

Re:German Police Used Only 85 Bullets Against People in 2011 by Zak on Sunday May 13, 2012 @01:07PM (#3967517)
True, but a bullet falling at terminal velocity may still kill:

http://articles.nydailynews.com/2011-12-20/news/30540094_1_a...

Edit: this particular bullet would have been on a ballistic trajectory and would have retained a significant amount of its original velocity.

Re:German Police Used Only 85 Bullets Against People in 2011 by EdiX on Sunday May 13, 2012 @08:35AM (#3966826)
Only in a vacuum, otherwise it's the terminal velocity IIRC it's much less than the firing speed for bullets.
Re:German Police Used Only 85 Bullets Against People in 2011 by jimktrains2 on Sunday May 13, 2012 @09:51AM (#3966994)
"In the case of a bullet fired at sufficiently close to a vertical angle to result in a non-ballistic trajectory, the bullet would tumble, lose its spin, and fall at a much slower speed due to terminal velocity and is therefore rendered less than lethal on impact (the Busted rating). However, if a bullet is fired at a lower angle allowing for a ballistic trajectory (a far more likely case), it will maintain its spin and will retain enough energy to be lethal on impact (the Plausible rating). Because of this potentiality, firing a gun into the air is illegal in most U.S. states, and even in the states where it is legal, it is not recommended by the police. Also the MythBusters were able to identify two people who had been injured by falling bullets (fired from approximately 1 mile (1.6 km) away, and hence at a lower angle), one of them fatally (the Confirmed rating). To date, this is the only myth to receive all three ratings at the same time." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MythBusters_(2006_season)#Episo...
Re:German Police Used Only 85 Bullets Against People in 2011 by eru on Sunday May 13, 2012 @09:46AM (#3966984)
Still somewhat dangerous, and the reason why celebratory gunfire, which is rather customary in some countries, is now frowned upon by the authorities.
Re:German Police Used Only 85 Bullets Against People in 2011 by dorianj on Sunday May 13, 2012 @09:45AM (#3966982)
Yes, it is dangerous, and totally breaks basic firearm safety rules.
Re:German Police Used Only 85 Bullets Against People in 2011 by fforw on Sunday May 13, 2012 @08:01AM (#3966776)
Germany is so densely populated that it might also just be a lot harder for criminals to find a good hiding place without being noticed.
Re:German Police Used Only 85 Bullets Against People in 2011 by TDL on Sunday May 13, 2012 @12:14PM (#3967361)
Well said. It seems as though an intellectual shift has occurred in law enforcement training where de-escalation is no longer a priority and police officers are now more prone to escalate. Part of this might be due to the introduction of less-than-lethal and (supposedly) non-lethal weapons.
Re:German Police Used Only 85 Bullets Against People in 2011 by DominikR on Sunday May 13, 2012 @10:41AM (#3967107)
Police officers in Germany in most cases when someone points a gun at them wont even draw their gun, but try to talk to the person, or take cover and call in extra support.
Re:German Police Used Only 85 Bullets Against People in 2011 by patrickk on Sunday May 13, 2012 @03:43PM (#3968038)
Well said, I think you've hit the nail on the head. Here in Ireland (republic of) I've heard, anecdotally, that the police will quite frequently give chase to joyriders and people speeding, but will very quickly give up the chase if they don't think it'll be reined in quickly. So police in Europe generally may be willing to let people go to de-escalate a situation and save lives, of both suspects and innocent bystanders.