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Re:How to Change a System by 0thgen on Monday February 26, 2024 @07:34AM (#39510550)
"There are big players that deliberately created many of those problems"

Could you specify which ones? I'm curious who's profiting from hunger, poverty, economic instability, and unemployment -- and thereby perpetuating it (sounds like major speculation).

Maybe war gets propagated by nations military industries (though that's probably only sometimes true). The remaining problems listed (environmental damage, drug addiction, chronic disease) seems like second order consequences of other pursuits, not problems perpetuated for their own sake.

Whether they're first or second order consequences might seem like a semantics debate, but it's what distinguishes your model (problems are deliberate) from Donella Meadows model (externalities, collective action, structural issues, etc). And both models suggest very different solutions (police bad actors versus change structures/incentives)

Re:How to Change a System by southerntofu on Monday February 26, 2024 @07:57AM (#39510772)
I'm gonna play the devil's advocate, but it's not as crazy as it sounds. Like some other commenter noted, the "shock doctrine" for example is a very widely documented/theorized phenomenon and not a conspiracy theory.

> hunger

There's a huge agro-food industry that profits from hunger. Its profits depend on subsistence farming being impossible or illegal so that's what they do: outlaw peasant seeds (like in France), buy all land from the owners until the population can't feed itself and needs the supermarket to survive, arrange for economic structures that allow for massive foreign subsidies (eg. EU CAP) to compete with the few local farmers left...

> poverty, economic instability, and unemployment

Temp work is another major industry that can only flourish when better employment conditions are not available to the workers. For those who don't find work and/or caught in the judicial system for some reason, the prison industrial complex will make profit on their incarceration. Once incarcerated, some companies will employ prisoners without working rights and protections in quasi-slavery conditions, making a ton more money than if they needed proper salaries and safety conditions. To give an example, here in France prison labor is usually < 1€/hour compared to ~10€/hour minimum wage.

> drug addiction

European settlers in America used alcohol as a weapon against natives. Later, during the cold war, the CIA organized for crack cocaine to destroy black neighborhoods social tissue, while financing the "contras" fascist militias.

We could go on. I'm not saying reforming incentives is wrong, it's certainly part of the solution. But it would be very naive to think that alone is enough to change society because nobody would want to harm others. Fascists very much exist and very much want to harm others, not necessarily out of a profit motive but also sometimes out of pure hatred.

Re:How to Change a System by 0thgen on Monday February 26, 2024 @10:55AM (#39512719)
Fair enough. It'd be impossible for me to argue that there aren't bad actors doing very bad things But to what extent are problems due to (a) bad actors, versus (b) structure issues, resource scarcity, trade-offs, collective action problems, etc

And even if we suppose bad actors are 100% responsible for the world's problems, the systems-level analysis (if I understand it correctly) would still suggest that the solution is "structural" (cut off all the leverage points that allow bad actors to manipulate institutions)

Say, in the case of the opioid crisis (which most of us agree was caused in large part from a bad actor), do we abolish pharmaceutical companies, or do we abolish the structural pathways (marketing, lobbying) that let them do bad things?

I lean towards the latter, but don't know if it's any more feasible than the former

Re:How to Change a System by vincnetas on Monday February 26, 2024 @08:21AM (#39510961)
I can give you couple example.

Private prisons profit directly from incarceration rates (crime)

Sugar factories profit from selling unhealthy food.

Re:How to Change a System by 0thgen on Monday February 26, 2024 @10:39AM (#39512502)
fair points, and in another comment I point to tax service companies lobbying for complicated tax laws in the US. I'm fine admitting that bad actors do bad things

now, to what extend do you think the majority of the world's problems are caused by (a) bad actors, versus (b) structural issues or resource constraints. 100%? 70%? 30%?

What we devote our attention to depends very much on that question (as well as what changes are easy to implement)

Re:How to Change a System by yamrzou on Monday February 26, 2024 @08:25AM (#39510990)
Private prisons only profit because people commit crimes. So the question becomes: How to make people commit less crimes?

Sugar factories are only able to sell because people are willing to buy. So the question becomes: How to make people less willing to consume unhealthy food?

Re:How to Change a System by kibwen on Monday February 26, 2024 @10:41AM (#39512530)
> Private prisons only profit because people commit crimes. So the question becomes: How to make people commit less crimes?

Examine where this intuition comes from. Firstly, the problem is not "too many people are committing crimes", it's "prisons are profiting from people committing crimes", which creates a perverse incentive. Secondly, as a result of this perverse incentive, judges and lawmakers are incentivized to write and enforce laws such that the business model of incarceration is maintained. So the question of "How to make people commit less crimes?" is misaimed; the problem isn't with the people committing the crimes, it's with the people defining what is and is not a crime.

Re:How to Change a System by 0thgen on Monday February 26, 2024 @11:04AM (#39512840)
I'd say you're right here that private prisons are an example of a "bad actor" causing a major problem, and I'd even go as far as supporting abolishing private prisons (though some crime would still likely exist regardless)

But it still isn't clear that the other major problems mentioned (world hunger, economic instability, environmental damage, chronic disease, war) can be eliminated purely by eliminating bad actors

Re:How to Change a System by kibwen on Monday February 26, 2024 @11:09AM (#39512922)
Sure, but the thrust of the thread here is to refute the blanket assertion that nobody wants these things to exist or actively chooses to create the conditions in which they exist. As you say, not all problems are the result of perverse incentives, but there are enough that are that we should be careful not to over-generalize. And it's not just nitpicking, because this has consequences for the OP; it's one thing to change a system that exists unintentionally, and quite another thing to change a system that exists intentionally.
Re:How to Change a System by 0thgen on Monday February 26, 2024 @11:56AM (#39513658)
fair enough; I agree with that
Re:How to Change a System by vincnetas on Monday February 26, 2024 @08:35AM (#39511076)
When you have multibillion marketing machine convincing you that "Fruit" loops are healthy breakfast, there is not much you can do to educate people otherwise. Do you think if there were legal unregulated heroin factories, there would be peoples fault that they are buying/consuming highly promoted heroin?

Regarding incarceration, when there is initiative to give prison time, instead of providing help (in case of light drug use) you get more people in prison.

Of course you can always say that it's up to people to make a final decision, but we arguing here that there are powerful interests groups that trying to influence the outcome of everyday decisions that lead us to before mentioned outcomes.

Re:How to Change a System by nyrikki on Monday February 26, 2024 @09:24AM (#39511524)
While I won't touch the sugar claim, private prison companies tend to think of themselves as real estate investors. They try to get desperate rural governments to give them land for pennies on the dollar.

They make empirically false claims for what the local economic impact is going to be by being obtuse.

I know this because I was involved with meetings with one trying to move into my home town.

I got them to admit the first in public meeting but they punted on the second.

And if you think there's a direct connection between crimes and prison terms, you are just under informed.

There are lots of people in prison who have long paid for their crimes but are still there because they are victims of their time (Cash)

Keeping people in prison is incentivized for private prisons.

Re:How to Change a System by 0thgen on Monday February 26, 2024 @10:43AM (#39512565)
so one solution (especially in the case of private prisons) would be to disband the bad actors

But do you see the value that comes from thinking about this as a structural problem? Until we completely cut off the pathway that gives private interest groups access to the levers of criminal law, bad actors will keep emerging