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Re:The Earth is getting greener by BillFranklin on Saturday February 24, 2024 @08:32AM (#39491354)
The article is a bit all over the place.

> So, yes, greening is complicated. It’s not inherently good. Sometimes it’s very bad. Context, it turns out, matters a lot.

The tone suggests they're afraid of the change, but the article can't articulate why since the reason for the change and result are both possibly good and bad, but we don't really know yet.

The NASA MODIS project is ongoing and produces data that people are using to measure "greenness" (which the article indirectly cites) and has been going for 20 years https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moderate_Resolution_Imaging_Sp... - it's definitely an interesting dataset.

Didan seems to be leading the vegetation research for MODIS and the data set has been cited thousands of times (https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=TxQK6U8AAAAJ&hl=en...)

Re:The Earth is getting greener by moosey on Saturday February 24, 2024 @11:58AM (#39493054)
This winter in my neck of the woods I hear a lot of people saying "oh, what great weather this year", because it's warm and without snow.

If they had taken enough math to understand chaotic dynamic systems, they would need be as anxious as I am. It's less that I can tell you exactly what's going to happen, although there are definitely things that we are certain of, like riskier hurricanes.

What keeps me up at night is that farmers have no idea what the next season will look like because we have altered the conditions of the function of climate, and therefore will enter a new state. We do not know where it will land and what it will look like getting there, and that very likely means reduction in food production.

Sometimes fear is justified.

Re:The Earth is getting greener by throwawaymaths on Saturday February 24, 2024 @01:02PM (#39493663)
Last few years hurricane seasons in the US have been less bad, because most really bad hurricanes have turned north further east than normal, avoiding coastal cities.
Re:The Earth is getting greener by d0gsg0w00f on Saturday February 24, 2024 @02:28PM (#39494442)
What are people supposed to do? Just live in guilt and fear? People arent idiots simply because they're trying to make the best of a bad situation
Re:The Earth is getting greener by _kulang on Saturday February 24, 2024 @04:01PM (#39495123)
I think guilt and fear might be warranted as people have had a history of willingly being idiots regarding climate change. Best of a bad situation is one thing. Best of a bad situation which you are party to is another
Re:The Earth is getting greener by silverquiet on Saturday February 24, 2024 @04:11PM (#39495178)
> What are people supposed to do?

I tried drinking copiously but eventually my insides started hurting. So I don't know either.

Re:The Earth is getting greener by inference-lord on Saturday February 24, 2024 @07:10PM (#39496333)
Maybe be a bit more realistic about the situation. It's not that we should go around being depressed, but we should go around demanding more action. More solar, more nuclear, more forest rebuilding.

Not just accepting that it's 72 out and that it's nice, nothing to see here, move along.

Like you said, people aren't stupid and should be a bit more conscious of the actual implications of this.

I think what you're describing is actually denial because facing the reality is scary at first.

Re:The Earth is getting greener by sprocket on Saturday February 24, 2024 @02:35PM (#39494478)
I dairy farmed for 14 years, and my wife and I got out in the winter of 2023. We've seen ever increasing scarcity of water in our region, because the surrounding mountains don't get enough snow pack whose melt feeds the streams through spring and summer, and we don't see the spring rains nearly as much anymore either. We used to be able to irrigate our hay fields all summer long with no issues, until fall rains returned. Now the rains stop in April, we irrigate until the water runs out (which last year was in June), and then hope for the best. When we need to buy hay for our animals, prices have nearly tripled in the last 10 years.
Re:The Earth is getting greener by troupe on Saturday February 24, 2024 @08:16PM (#39496711)
So you live in a region that has significantly less snowfall than what can be expected based on the normal variation that occurred 25, 50, or 100 years ago?
Re:The Earth is getting greener by ruszki on Sunday February 25, 2024 @05:00AM (#39499418)
I don’t know where parent commenter lives, but in Central Europe, this definitely happened in a radical way. There is basically no snow. A day, or if you’re lucky three days a year maximum. This is going on for the past 20-25 years continuously. This didn’t happen in the past millennia at all. In the mountain village where I lived is totally unimaginable the winter for kids nowadays, how was in the 90s for me. And that was normal for centuries.

Also 40 Celsius is the new 30 in the past 15 years. This didn’t happen since we measure temperature. And 10 degrees are a lot, and the change happened in a decade.

Also summer wind patterns completely changed in the past 5 years, due to the weakening currents in Atlantic Ocean. This is something which is also highly unusual the past millennia. We know this for sure, because all of our towns were built wind from West in mind. We have wind from that direction less and less.

This is way over normal variation.

But looking at other examples, for example Norway. Thawing permafrost bogs are not something which can be explained by normal variation.

Re:The Earth is getting greener by inference-lord on Saturday February 24, 2024 @06:54PM (#39496228)
I think this is a funny attitude too, like personally, I don't know why people aren't upset about losing winter, it's a beautiful time of the year. Economically valuable too. Taking a walk on a snowy morning or doing some cross country skiing is completely beautiful. I feel like as a human, we're supposed to just accept more and more outrageous things. Loss of winter? Oh well...at least it's sunny.

To me personally the loss of the seasons is one of the most tragic things I've witnessed.We've had 1/10th of the snow we usually have, it's almost all melted already and everything looks kind of depressing. But I know the lack of snow melt will have an impact on farming too, all this for for what? So resources companies were able to profit a bit more?

In Kyoto, Japan last year year, which is famous for the "red leaves" in Autumn which attracts huge swathes of tourists, had no red leaves. To me the loss of the beautiful spectacle is one thing, like, but also concerning as you said, we've tipped some type of scales but who knows how far...maybe it will be ok, maybe it won't.

I'm working out how to grow food hydroponically because I'm concerned food prices will just keep getting more expensive as this worsens and don't want to be left relying on "global trade" for my sustenance.

Re:The Earth is getting greener by platz on Saturday February 24, 2024 @09:37AM (#39491753)
> The article is a bit all over the place.

Must an observation have an easily digestible value judgement and tell you how you should think about it, or can it just be allowed to present the facts and list the pros and cons.

which one do you think leads to a healthier media environment

Did you yourself not also include a portion of your comment to respond to article based on its data with your own "it depends" based on other data?

> The tone suggests they're afraid of the change

What do you think they lay person would immediately think about 'the earth is greening' and would it be appropriate to address those initial perceptions.

Re:The Earth is getting greener by paulsutter on Saturday February 24, 2024 @09:41AM (#39491778)
The issue is just the opposite: the article is making a value judgment in the absence of objective data. I interpret the comment saying more info and less judgement please
Re:The Earth is getting greener by platz on Saturday February 24, 2024 @09:47AM (#39491818)
The objective data is the greenness of the earth measured by satellites.

the article offers multiple possible explanations for this and what their effects might be. it acknowledges those derivative outcomes are speculative.

Re:The Earth is getting greener by tastyfreeze on Saturday February 24, 2024 @01:43PM (#39494024)
All of the offered explanations still paint humans as the perpetrators of a crime against the environment.

Not once is a greening planet painted in a positive light in this article. Its as if the writer is afraid to say something positive about CO2 emissions.

Re:The Earth is getting greener by varelaseb on Saturday February 24, 2024 @04:39PM (#39495364)
Optimizing for "green" is not what we're trying to achieve here. Mountains get greener when the tree line climbs as a sign of it's ecological decline. Stable forest and weather systems, biodiversity, bioavailability of nutrients in the ground are things closer to the interest of ecological causes.
Re:The Earth is getting greener by oceanplexian on Sunday February 25, 2024 @07:45AM (#39500348)
Before is was physically possible for humans to change the climate most of the northern hemisphere was covered in a 4km thick sheet of ice. Then it melted and now there are forests. This melting also happened completely naturally and wasn’t because the cave men were putting out too much CO2.

This was done by the natural processes of the Earth, so recently even humans were alive during the Ice Age. Some scientists even say that we are due for another ice age, that we may be otherwise avoiding due to climate change.

Re:The Earth is getting greener by silverquiet on Sunday February 25, 2024 @07:52AM (#39500391)
Humans were around for the ice age, but not any of the humans I know. That was about 4 degrees Celsius, right? Over thousands of years. Meanwhile, my mom has lived through about 1.5 already and will probably see 2 in her life. Hell, depending on the breaks, I might live to see 3. Compressing a geological age into a human lifetime is bound to have some wacky effects. I can’t imagine being a kid today and thinking how much they’ll live to see.
Re:The Earth is getting greener by satvikpendem on Saturday February 24, 2024 @03:14PM (#39494781)
They do so because, just because something is greener does not make it better for humanity. For example, we can have "greener" algae blooms that nevertheless eat up the oxygen in a lake or ocean and then we have no fish to eat.
Re:The Earth is getting greener by throwawayqqq11 on Saturday February 24, 2024 @02:17PM (#39494336)
> The objective data is the greenness of the earth

Which is a quantitative statement. Altered conditions will not benefit every local species equally.

> Context matters

Re:The Earth is getting greener by graycat on Saturday February 24, 2024 @10:46AM (#39492390)
> which one do you think leads to a healthier media environment

Hmm, apparently the answer depends!!!

What I believe is "healthier", e.g., for (1) my being informed or (2) click-bait headlines, eyeballs, ad revenue????

But, now, for

> the facts and list the pros and cons.

there is a possibility, that is, from some changes from the Internet:

First, the basic ideas of click-bait, etc. go way back in the history of many decades of journalism publishers. They needed a lot of revenue: Printing plants, trucks to deliver literally tons of news print or magazines, ..., radio and TV studios, etc. were expensive. The number of publishers was constrained: Each major city had just two main newspapers, morning and evening. There were a few national magazines. Then, the number of large radio stations, TV stations, were similarly limited. Un, click-bait that works in one major city stands to work everywhere which creates the constraints on the number of national click-bait publishers.

> easily digestible value judgment and tell you how you should think

Well put. For the big publishers, that is what dominated.

For a good review and explanation going way back, see the ~1941 movie Meet John Doe.

Second, now the decades, 100+ years, of such journalism is also being attempted on the Web sites of the Internet -- thus, your well put objection.

BUT ...!!!! For an audience and a publisher for

> the facts and list the pros and cons.

they no longer need be so expensive. A single tower case computer can send, what, 100+ Web pages a second?

Sooo, now the mass audience can have subsets.

Some simple arithmetic:

Assume 1 ad per Web page sent, revenue of $1 per 1000 ads displayed, sending a 24 x 7 average of 50 Web pages a second. Assume pre-tax earnings are 50% of revenue.

Then annual earnings would be

50 * 3600 * 24 * 265 / ( 1000 * 2 ) = 572,400

dollars.

Assume the business is worth 100 times annual earnings, and get

100 * 50 * 3600 * 24 * 265 / ( 1000 * 2 ) = 57,240,000

dollars.

A possibility for

> the facts and list the pros and cons.

is the economy: A lot of data is available. Could present it in largely some simple X-Y graphs can do routinely with, say, Excel in Microsoft's Office.

Another possibility: For COVID, start with the crucial data in the report of the Phase III trials in

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmoa2035389

COVID and medicine more generally are good subjects for

> the facts and list the pros and cons.

Follow, say, common high school standards for term papers, e.g., careful references, hopefully to credible primary sources.

Get an audience that values credibility.

Then get a brand, a growing audience, and a successful business.

Hmm, yup, I have a related startup -- Web site code running as intended. Should go live this year.

Re:The Earth is getting greener by platz on Saturday February 24, 2024 @10:55AM (#39492477)
thanks, hope you're doing OK bud
Re:The Earth is getting greener by tmnvix on Saturday February 24, 2024 @03:15PM (#39494786)
> the change and result are both possibly good and bad, but we don't really know yet.

I'm no scientist, but I believe the current ecological disaster effecting the UK's largest lake may be an example of the type of bad outcome we could expect to see more of.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2024/feb/19/like-the...

It appears that a large algal bloom might be the immediate cause. Apparently algal blooms benefit from higher CO2 levels.

https://www.epa.gov/nutrientpollution/climate-change-and-har...

I can't find it now, but I do remember reading some theory that previous extinction events on earth were driven by large amounts of organic matter breaking down anaerobically (i.e. underwater) which leads to a huge increase in some pretty nasty gases in the atmosphere. There have (apparently) even been times when some of the world's oceans were effectively large swamps.

Edit: My mistake, I didn't read about what I mentioned in that last paragraph - I heard it on youtube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8eM1aakTzMw

To give the general gist of what's covered in the above video/interview with paleobiologist Peter Ward:

03:00 - We need a little bit of CO2, but it’s easy to have too much CO2

04:20 - Rare Earth: Why Complex Life is Uncommon in the Universe (co-written with Dan Brownlee)

04:40 - Excessive heat and mortality

05:12 - Volcanic activity responsible for past CO2 spikes

05:40 - Previous mass extinctions

05:57 - Non-animal mass extinctions

07:18 - Uneven atmospheric heating

and much more...

Well worth a listen if you have the time.