News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Google to pause Gemini image generation of people after i... by stcroixx on Thursday February 22, 2024 @10:13AM (#39468264)
What is the preferred term in the UK - African British?
Re:Google to pause Gemini image generation of people after i... by jack_riminton on Thursday February 22, 2024 @10:19AM (#39468349)
Well if they're black and you were describing their race you'd just say they're black.

If they're black and British and you're describing their nationality you'd say they were British.

Re:Google to pause Gemini image generation of people after i... by fdsfdsafdsafds on Thursday February 22, 2024 @10:43AM (#39468741)
If you started calling British black people "African", it wouldn't be long before you got a punch.
Re:Google to pause Gemini image generation of people after i... by tekla on Thursday February 22, 2024 @11:29AM (#39469463)
Its amazing how casual racism is.
Re:Google to pause Gemini image generation of people after i... by hellojesus on Thursday February 22, 2024 @01:12PM (#39470871)
Where is the racism? I only see a question about proper categorization.
Re:Google to pause Gemini image generation of people after i... by vidarh on Thursday February 22, 2024 @01:50PM (#39471342)
There's an implicit assumption in it, that while I think it might well not have been trying to be offensive can be seen to suggests a black person in the UK would be African.

Not only do many of them not see themselves as such because they're born here, and their parents and grandparents might be British and/or born here (my son is mixed, his grandfather on his mothers side was Nigerian and British and born here; he is third generation British by some measure - his mother was born in Nigeria, but holds British citizenship due to her father; if he decides to consider himself African or Nigerian - he has a Nigerian citizenship - that's up to him, but he's born here, to a mother with a British citizenship, and has never set foot in any part of Africa), but another significant proportion of black people here consider themselves Caribbean rather than African, because their ancestry goes back many generations in the Caribbean, and that's where they or their recent ancestors immigrated from.

Here, "forcing" a categorization of "African" on someone will be seen by at least some people as implying they're immigrants, and even when that is actually the case, having the label forced on you is often a prelude to racist sentiments.

Re:Google to pause Gemini image generation of people after i... by hellojesus on Thursday February 22, 2024 @02:53PM (#39472179)
That all makes sense, but in this case I didn't read any ill intent. All I read was an American asking a categorization question. The immigration status was not relevant to 'African British'. It was simply a byproduct of 1990s/2000s culture where, in the US, "black" was not a term you could use without inferring racism. Rather folks were taught to use "African American" to mitigate racisim claims.

The other comment from hot_gil sums it up well,

"""

I promise it's not because we think of people outside the US as American. When I was a kid in the 2000s, we were told never to say "black" and to say "African-American" instead. There was no PC term in the US to refer to black people who are not American. This has started to change lately, but it's still iffy.

"""

There has been very vocal pressure to understand "lived experiences". This, to me, qualifies exactly as that and is purely a misinterpretation of the author's intent.

Re:Google to pause Gemini image generation of people after i... by vidarh on Thursday February 22, 2024 @03:28PM (#39472711)
I figured that might be the case, and why I tried to thread softly with the first line of my reply. In Europe in general, the "where are you really from?" line of questioning is one most non-white (and quite a lot of white) people will run into, and while it is often used to obscure racism, anti-immigrant sentiment a bigger part of the discussion because it is often the "first layer" of a package that will turn out to include racism once you've peeled back the anti-immigration (not always - there are people who have anti-immigrant views who are not racist - the link, I think, rather goes the other direction: most of the racists are also anti-immigrant and uses it as a marginally more 'acceptable' shield against accusations of racism)

Hence for many people it becomes important to de-emphasize "another location" in how they identify that might imply they somehow don't belong. While for others holding on to a culture that is often a lot closer matters.

And so the discourse around labels is very different.

Re:Google to pause Gemini image generation of people after i... by hellojesus on Thursday February 22, 2024 @03:52PM (#39473048)
Thank you for the insight. It's really interesting to see the Euro perspective. Moreso considering how I would believe immigration is more common after the establishment of the EU. But I suppose you do have relatively recent major conflicts which may cause resistance to outsiders.

As an aside, I once was considering trying to spend some working years in Scandinavia but read that it was likely I would always be kept at an arm's length by the locals since I was non native, regardless of my fluency in the language. As an American, I found it odd considering how heterogenous my social circle was. Maybe totally false or not applicable to urban centers, but I read it from various sources, and it was persuasive enough for me to switch focus to mainland Europe.

Re:Google to pause Gemini image generation of people after i... by vidarh on Friday February 23, 2024 @04:57AM (#39478824)
For Scandinavia and the rest of the Nordics natives get kept at arms length too. Not going to play down the presence of xenophobia as well, but really the Nordic countries can seem very cold on the surface because nobody let you get close until there is a socially sanctioned reason to.

To the point there are books about how to befriend us [1]. There's also this meme[2] of Finns always spacing out at bus stops to avoid invading each other's personal space, for example, but while Finland is perhaps on one extreme of that, Scandinavia as well is close. Denmark maybe a little bit less and in Norway and Sweden.

The way around that tends to be shared activities. E.g. joining a class, going out with colleagues, or joining various groups, or getting drunk, where you then have a socially sanctioned reason for talking to people, and people build from that. People who are used to being able to start friendships with just random encounters will often find that frustrating and hard to navigate and wonder why they're blanked or ignored or actively rebuffed when trying to be friendly - it's not you, or where you're from (most of the time), it's that talking to a stranger makes a lot of people instantly wonder what fresh hell this is. It's not that random encounters etc. never lead anywhere in Scandinavia, but it's rarer. If you move to any of the Nordic countries and don't know or pick on that you will have a bad time. Unless you're a massive introvert - then it's awesome.

For someone who is used to expecting American levels of just randomly talking to people (having been on the receiving ends of that many times when visiting the US: I could never get used to that...), getting used to that might be hard, and basically the further South you go in Europe the less you deal with that.

[1] https://www.thesocialguidebook.no/blogs/norwegian-culture I bought the first one of this guys books as a joke for my non-Norwegian girlfriend, and it gets things mostly right, I think.

[2] https://www.reddit.com/r/Finland/comments/1494mm/how_to_wait...

Re:Google to pause Gemini image generation of people after i... by hellojesus on Friday February 23, 2024 @11:45AM (#39482914)
Really great info. Thank you!
Re:Google to pause Gemini image generation of people after i... by prepend on Thursday February 22, 2024 @01:24PM (#39471021)
I think GP was referring to themself. Otherwise their comment makes no sense.
Re:Google to pause Gemini image generation of people after i... by tekla on Thursday February 22, 2024 @01:33PM (#39471147)
You have to be racist to assume that a Black person wants to be called "African British" in the UK.

If you called my Black friends "African American" they would be pretty close to punching you in the face.

Why wouldn't it be racist to assume Black people are African.

Re:Google to pause Gemini image generation of people after i... by hellojesus on Thursday February 22, 2024 @02:56PM (#39472215)
Why is it so offensive? Why not just let the speaker know they weren't American and move on?

The instant escalation to violence seems like part of the problem generally in today's society, which extends to non racial topics like politics, gender fluidity, etc.

A more appropriate reponse would be something like, "Why do you think I'm American?" A simple question like that would likely be sufficient to get the original speaker to think abkut and reorient their world view, and there was good-faith discussion the entire way.

Re:Google to pause Gemini image generation of people after i... by tekla on Thursday February 22, 2024 @03:01PM (#39472287)
My Black friend isn't African. That's why. They don't give a shit about being called American, they give a shit about being assumed about being African because they are black.
Re:Google to pause Gemini image generation of people after i... by hellojesus on Thursday February 22, 2024 @03:17PM (#39472538)
Hence my point about a calm response opposed to escalation to a honest mistake.
Re:Google to pause Gemini image generation of people after i... by tekla on Thursday February 22, 2024 @03:25PM (#39472662)
The mistake is due to racism.
Re:Google to pause Gemini image generation of people after i... by Jerrrry on Thursday February 22, 2024 @10:58AM (#39468985)
Black British, because their skin is colored, and are British.

Black American, same way.

"African-" implies you were born in Africa, "-American" imples you then immigrated to America.

Elon Musk is an African-American.

13% of the US population are Black Americans.

Re:Google to pause Gemini image generation of people after i... by dekhn on Thursday February 22, 2024 @01:51PM (#39471355)
Are extremely dark-skinned people (for example from South India) who move to england called "Black"? I've never heard that and would be surprised but i'm curious.
Re:Google to pause Gemini image generation of people after i... by Jerrrry on Thursday February 22, 2024 @05:01PM (#39473918)
They would be called black socially, but would be Indian-British til they revealed their accent, I would think.
Re:Google to pause Gemini image generation of people after i... by peanuty1 on Monday February 26, 2024 @02:31AM (#39508499)
The term African-American does not imply that one was born in Africa. It refers to Americans of African ethnicity (which includes Carribean-Americans of African descent). Chris Rock, Lebron James, and Michael Jordan are all African-Americans born in the US.

Elon Musk is not considered African-American according to the popular usage of the term as he is of European descent despite being born in South Africa.

Re:Google to pause Gemini image generation of people after i... by vidarh on Thursday February 22, 2024 @01:04PM (#39470765)
Depends. Usually black if you don't know any more. Black British if you know they are British, but a lot of black people here are born in Africa or the Caribbean, and not all will be pleased to be described as British (some will take active offense, given Britains colonial past) and will prefer you to use their country or African/Caribbean depending on context.

My ex would probably grudgingly accept black British, but would describe herself as black, Nigerian, or African, despite also having British citizenship.

If you're considering how to describe someone who is present, then presumably you have a good reason and can explain the reason and ask what they prefer. If you're describing someone by appearance, 'black' is the safest most places in the UK unless you already know what they prefer.

"Nobody" uses "African British".

Re:Google to pause Gemini image generation of people after i... by stcroixx on Friday February 23, 2024 @09:12AM (#39480779)
That's wild you can still say black there. That's been a no go in the US for a while.