Introducing extreme complexity so early in the process turns off people; they give up easily and (falsely, in many cases) start believing that programming is not for them.

The first introduction should have enough fundamental programming concepts to enable the students to make something useful and tangible, by themselves. As the interests and the objectives grow, they can delve deeper into the domain.

I think with Khan Academy, Udacity and others, we are entering a new paradigm of "Just in time learning". Schools should focus on teaching smart learning techniques, critical thinking etc instead of cramming more and more topics in their curriculums.

I'm happy to live in a post-Alan Kay world, but I think maybe it's time to dust off that sculpture of Dijkstra we keep in storage and move it out into the foyer. Programming is hard; glossing over what makes it hard in the name of doing stuff sooner may or may not help, but as long as we debate it without testing it empirically we're sure to get nowhere.

I have to clarify that my comment was targeted towards current Udacity (other MOOC) participants who wants to learn programming as a value added skill or hobby.

If you want to graduate with CS major and/or want to pick CS as a profession; I do believe you need to have a good understanding on the entire stack. There are no shortcuts to being a good professional and achieving mastery in any field requires committed hard work.

When you introduce concepts such as addressing/pointers(which are typically in hexadecimal) and memory management you add many more moving parts to the mix. In my opinion, abstracting a lot of this stuff away helps lower the number of opportunities on which a beginner can get caught up.

You're about 30 levels above an actual beginner. You have to think even lower capability, like this:

> When you're trying to print "Hello World" you have to know all this hard stuff like how to type "python" into PowerShell, or even just install Python on Windows and fix it's broken PATH settings.

That's where you need to be thinking if you're thinking about what a beginner struggles with.

Learning C is good if you want to learn most of the canonical CS stuff - linked lists, bla, bla, bla.

If you want to recommend it to someone who is learning how to program so that they can get their web startup off the ground (where Python or Ruby would be a better fit), or someone who is trying to parse CSV files for work (C# or Python), then you can, politely, fuck off and die.

> One must understand pointers and bytes and bits and memory management and all that shit that leads to segfaults and many hours of debugging to be a programmer.

No, no really you don't. Perhaps to be some sort of archetypal "Real Programmer", but that's different from learning to program. There are all sorts of other factors at play: motivation, being able to get something working relatively quickly and iterate, being able to show friends/colleagues what you're working on, accessibility of libraries, etc.

Disclosure: I wrote a book on how to program in Python: http://manning.com/briggs/

So, are you saying that if you asked a candidate during a job interview what malloc is or why inserting things in a linked list is faster that inserting things into an array, and he gave you a blank stare, you'd still hire him?

The array/list can be pre-allocated to the size you need and have good cache locality and minimal container overhead -- the linked list will have the overhead of the pointer to the next node (2x for a doubly-linked list) + the type descriptor (if you're using a language like c#, java, python, etc.) per node and data located all over the heap with cache misses everywhere.

<sameCondescendingToneAsParent> If I was asked during an interview why inserting things in a linked list is faster that [sic] inserting things into an array, and I provided an answer that made him blankly stare back at me, would I want to take the job? </sameCondescendingToneAsParent>

Perhaps you're getting a guy switching careers or fields of expertise (web -> system or accounting -> embedded), or someone that just has that gap in their knowledge, or someone that's just having a plain ol' brainfart at that point in time. No need to be as rude as I responded in my third paragraph.

I said insert, not append. What made you assume the question was about inserting at the end? Even if you have a big pre-allocated array, inserting an element somewhere in the middle will still cost you the price of shifting the "tail" of the array to make space for the new element, while the list will not have that cost.

What makes you think insert is important anyway? The typical use cases for an array/list are pop, append and indexing. Python's list implementation uses arrays, not linked lists, internally for exactly this reason: indexing being O[1] is more important for most purposes than fast inserts. (http://docs.python.org/faq/design.html#how-are-lists-impleme...)

And what's with the name-calling? Aren't you capable of having a normal, polite discussion?

You keep talking about "the subject matter" and "programming" like it's one topic. It's not, hence the "you're an ass" comment - you're just repeating your argument ad nauseam and ignoring everything everyone else has to say.

It's possible to be a good programmer without knowing how linked lists work in excruciating detail - get over it.

It looks like our definitions of "good" and "programmer" are somewhat different.

And I've seen people who were the opposite of what you're saying - people who knew lots about low level C/Assembly stuff, but who couldn't write clean, maintainable high level code to save their life.

But to get back on the original topic - none of that is relevant to learning how to program. Loops, variables, data structures, managing state, functions and classes are more what you want to teach to start with, and are far more relevant to most programmers than malloc or linked lists.

There is no reason someone who never programmed C would (or should) know what function is used to allocate memory in C.

If they are going to be programming in Python, there's probably no need for them to be familiar with memory management, or the underlying details of the language implementation - the language is there to insulate you (to a greater or lesser extent) from the machine. Later if it becomes useful to learn about memory management in other languages, they could do so if they are moderately intelligent, it's not rocket science or something that you must learn first or not at all.

Even the nature of a Struct, and how it might be more efficient than an Object, and the difference between a Stack and a Heap... All that's pretty accessible without sitting through a course on the finer workings of malloc.

The memory is there. It provides my byte buckets. I don't need to care much beyond that to be a good web-developer.

Asking most developers about malloc is probably about as relevant as asking about video frame-buffers. For some spaces it's make or break, but for most it's just useless trivia.

In it's most basic form Malloc basically is a linked list.

Similarly, there are different ways to come to the knowledge of what malloc is, or why inserting things into a linked list is faster than inserting things into an array.

I completely agree with that. It doesn't matter, as long as the knowledge is acquired somehow. I was just pointing out one of such ways.

Or the one intro C course, for that matter.

Jobs where those things matter depend on much more than having got your feet wet with C and malloc learned in one intro course. You probably wouldn't have this guy to the phone screen in the first place. Right?

Much better to asking about relevant things; some common Python library, or why they'd use lists vs. dictionaries vs. sets, or what a generator expression is.

And please note that those questions are not some intricate C specific questions. Memory management is a basic thing (I'm not talking about actual memory allocation algorithms, just things like how to make sure your program doesn't leak). Linked lists are also basic data structures. It's not asking what "volatile" keyword means and when to use it.

Python also does not have memory management or allocation, linked lists or "volatile". Memory management is basic for C and C++, but that's about it.

But you're talking hypotheticals - I can do that too: if you suddenly need big data then "Oops", you're going to want someone who knows Hadoop or Erlang. If you need to launch a rocket then "Oops" you're going to want an aerospace engineer. But if you're looking for a web dev, then C/Hadoop/Erlang/Aerospace questions are largely a waste of time, and might disqualify candidates who are otherwise fine or who could figure out C given a couple of days.

Bear in mind that the original topic is talking about languages for learning how to program, not languages for iOS development. If iOS apps float the beginner's boat then by all means learn Objective C; their enthusiasm for the field will probably overcome their frustration with C. But I suspect they'd be better off learning Python or similar first, then starting on C.

Hence my original response: it depends. Python is a pretty good choice because it can do well in lots of different fields and is easy to pick up.

8-bit PIC and AVR microcontrollers have very simple instruction sets and can be connected to simple I/O devices like switches and LEDs, but they both use Harvard architectures, so you have different address spaces for code and data. The newer 32-bit PIC micros use a MIPS core, but the development tools aren't very open, despite being based on GCC.

The 16-bit MSP430 is fairly simple, has good open-source development tools, cheap development hardware (check out the Launchpad), and a more conventional von-Neumann architecture. Check out some of Michael Kohn's sample code for the msp430 assembler he wrote:

http://www.mikekohn.net/micro/naken430asm_msp430_assembler.p...

I'm still very glad i learned C++, though. I think it best equates to learning latin in school: You're probably never going to need it, but it gives you great insight into how languages work on a lower level and where they come from. While this won't help with your vocabulary necessarily, it will help with autodidactic learning. For example, if i didn't know about pointers, it's likely i would never have wondered about how the parameters get passed to a function: By reference or by value.

Someone could make a similar argument about starting in C. And make similar arguments that you made for the benefits.

You have to start teaching somewhere in the stack. I actually disagree that it's infeasible to start with assembly. I don't think it's wise, but it's certainly feasible. I think people tend to have a bias that beginners should start at the same level of abstraction that they did. But I think that in online discussions, we place too much emphasis on where to start. I doubt it matters as much as the other factors, such as motivation of the student and the patience and care of the instructor.