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Re:$5 device accurately tests for breast cancer in under 5 s... by hn_throwaway_99 on Friday February 16, 2024 @12:07PM (#39399808)
Thank you for this! I get frustrated with the "N of only 21? Might as well flip a coin!" responses. Like you say, the whole purpose of statistical testing is to give an accurate, numeric value that says how likely the results are due to chance.

One thing I'd note, though, is that the paper's title is "High sensitivity saliva-based biosensor in detection of breast cancer biomarkers: HER2 and CA15-3". My understanding is that sensitivity was never really the problem with breast cancer detection - it's specificity that is the real challenge with all types of broadly-deployed medical screening tools.

Re:$5 device accurately tests for breast cancer in under 5 s... by lofatdairy on Friday February 16, 2024 @12:25PM (#39400072)
Sensitivity matters in this case because the medium is saliva which contains a fraction of the antigens contained in serum. Specificity is challenging when the biomarkers are non-specific and you only have 1 testing modality but that seems to be not so much the case here.
Re:$5 device accurately tests for breast cancer in under 5 s... by jncfhnb on Friday February 16, 2024 @12:38PM (#39400257)
Well, depends. It’s bayes law fucking us over with the vast majority of people not having breast cancer but really, really needing to know if they do.

This is why it’s better to have tiers of confidence for actual policy decisions and not just confusion matrix results frankly.

Like if you run this test and you’re in a cohort that is 99.999% likely to be cancer, that’s useful info. It’s not a problem, per se, if the test instead comes back with an answer of mixed certainty. We just need to be comfortable with getting neither a positive nor a negative prediction; nor expecting it to cover all cases.

The policy driving thresholds on tests need to consider the weights of each possible outcome to determine what to do.

Re:$5 device accurately tests for breast cancer in under 5 s... by ryandrake on Friday February 16, 2024 @12:58PM (#39400568)
No matter what the value of N is, someone always comes out of the woodwork to complain about it. It's a pretty common criticism of any study that relies on statistics, and one anyone can make in a few sentences.
Re:$5 device accurately tests for breast cancer in under 5 s... by wolverine876 on Friday February 16, 2024 @01:51PM (#39401326)
People on HN (maybe elsewhere too) devote a lot of attention to sample sizes. I don't know the upthread commenter at all, but in general I suspect it's because that is an easy thing to understand about research and statistics, and it's a valid critique they've seen professionals use.

A normal human fallacy is to focus on the thing you understand, that is easy to understand (e.g., easy to quantify), and overlook the difficult issues that are far more important. There is much more, of much more importance going on in most of these studies, and in their statistics and validity, than the sample size.

Re:$5 device accurately tests for breast cancer in under 5 s... by treflop on Friday February 16, 2024 @04:45PM (#39403386)
Elsewhere too

I first took stats in high school and we read a bunch of valid small sample size studies so I don’t know where people are failing to get educated.

There were so many factors going into whether a study was good.

Re:$5 device accurately tests for breast cancer in under 5 s... by ajb on Friday February 16, 2024 @05:55PM (#39404126)
Exactly.

Famous example: Lady tasting Tea [1]. N=1 or N=8 depending on how you look at it. Still significant.

This is the one that proves that it's possible to tell whether you added the milk first or second.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lady_tasting_tea

Re:$5 device accurately tests for breast cancer in under 5 s... by renewiltord on Friday February 16, 2024 @02:29PM (#39401822)
This is why science has gotten harder these days. When there were only half a billion people, sampling 500 got you 1 in a million coverage. Now there are 8 billion people, so it's worth 16 times less. As more people are made, science will suffer because the percentage is so much less. In fact, this is why I always trust science in small towns more. In Colma, for instance, you sample 500 and you have covered 33% of the people. Sometimes, it's even better to just sample people in one house. 100% coverage.
Re:$5 device accurately tests for breast cancer in under 5 s... by hn_throwaway_99 on Friday February 16, 2024 @02:51PM (#39402084)
TBH, I can't tell if this is sarcastic or not, because there is so much in this comment that belies a fundamental misunderstanding of statistical testing and statistical power, which is the point I was trying to make.

> Now there are 8 billion people, so it's worth 16 times less.

That is not how statistics works, at all.

> In fact, this is why I always trust science in small towns more. In Colma, for instance, you sample 500 and you have covered 33% of the people.

These are the sentences that made me think this had to be satire (presumably you want "science" to apply to places outside of Colma...), but in all honesty these days it's really hard to tell.

Re:$5 device accurately tests for breast cancer in under 5 s... by serial_dev on Friday February 16, 2024 @02:45PM (#39402011)
My assumption is that 98% of people have no idea what the right sample size is for this particular experiment, including myself of course.

To all who criticize and ridicule someone who would like to have more samples, why do you think 21 is such a perfect number in this case? Wouldn't 15 be enough, if statistics and all applies? 10? 1? Would 30 be too much?

Re:$5 device accurately tests for breast cancer in under 5 s... by hn_throwaway_99 on Friday February 16, 2024 @03:03PM (#39402225)
> To all who criticize and ridicule someone who would like to have more samples, why do you think 21 is such a perfect number in this case? Wouldn't 15 be enough, if statistics and all applies? 10? 1? Would 30 be too much?

This is the point that you are fundamentally misunderstanding. Nobody is making the argument that "21 is such a perfect number in this case". The rest of your sentences ("Wouldn't 15 be enough, if statistics and all applies? 10? 1? Would 30 be too much?") seem to point to a belief that people are pulling numbers based on a finger in the wind.

The whole point of (a lot of) statistical testing is that it allows you to come up with a specific number that determines how likely a particular result is due to chance. That is what the p < .05 "standard" is about - it's a determination that the results have less than a 5% likelihood to be due to random chance (though that 5% number used as "significant" is just basically pulled out of thin air, and p-hacking is another topic...) That is, I and the comment I replied to aren't making the argument that 21 "is such a perfect number". We're making the argument that even with a small sample size it's possible to determine the relative error bars, with precision, using statistical methods, not just pulling a number based on feels. Yes, larger sample sizes reduce the size of those error bars. But often not in ways that are "intuitive". You have to do the math.

None of what I wrote above is meant to imply that statistical tests can't be misused, or that they often require assumptions about the underlying population distribution that may not be correct.

Re:$5 device accurately tests for breast cancer in under 5 s... by jncfhnb on Friday February 16, 2024 @03:17PM (#39402403)
It is a function of the effect size, not the experiment. When the effect size is large, you need fewer samples to detect it reliably. In this case it looks pretty large. Would you want more people before rolling it out? Of course. But it’s very unlikely to be vaporware provided the samples are random.
Re:$5 device accurately tests for breast cancer in under 5 s... by kelseyfrog on Friday February 16, 2024 @03:44PM (#39402705)
Thank you! Came here to say, but found, that you've already written it.

Effect size is going to be important when talking about clinical significance, not just statistic significance, too.

I also want to point out that we have no stats on sensitivity, specificity, or diagnostic odds ratio, which are all clinically relevant to physicians deciding when to test and how to interpret test results.

The good news is that it's a non-invasive, low cost test which plays a factor in clinical decision-making.

Re:$5 device accurately tests for breast cancer in under 5 s... by kurthr on Friday February 16, 2024 @07:53PM (#39405116)
If you only flip a coin to the same side 21 times in a row, it could just be chance!

It's only 1 in a million, but at about 10 the same I'd start to figure the coin wasn't fair.