News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Waymo car vandalized and lit on fire in San Francisco by al_borland on Sunday February 11, 2024 @03:50AM (#39333541)
How will self driving cars lead to more cycling?

Automating car traffic will lead to more car traffic. Today the number of cars on the road are limited to the number of drivers. If the drivers are removed, there can be even more cars, just driving around empty to go get someone. Even if demand for transit remains the same, driverless taxis have the potential to double the number of trips that need to be take. From going to a place and returning home (2 trips), to empty to pickup, go to a place, empty to pickup again, and returning home (4 trips). At scale, this will be a nightmare.

To reduce car traffic we need to build alternatives to cars (protected bike lanes, rails, etc). We will never get people away from cars by building more/better cars.

Re:Waymo car vandalized and lit on fire in San Francisco by konschubert on Sunday February 11, 2024 @04:21AM (#39333702)
I think we are talking about two distinct policy goals here:

1) humans, including children, should be able to move through the public realm safely, no matter if they walk or bike

2) we do not want all the space in cities to be taken up by cars

Self-driving cars help with reaching goal number 1 partially, but it is not sufficient. Bike paths and other non-car infrastructure is also needed.

In terms of goal number 2, self-driving cars might open up a political chance to ban on-street parking.

You're right that they alone won't fix the problem, but I think they don't make it worse either. Traffic in cities is already limited by capacity, not by demand.

Re:Waymo car vandalized and lit on fire in San Francisco by aoeusnth1 on Sunday February 11, 2024 @11:35AM (#39336129)
The number one threat to pedestrians and cyclists is cars. If the cars were all safer, it would be more appealing to walk and bike.
Re:Waymo car vandalized and lit on fire in San Francisco by buildbot on Sunday February 11, 2024 @12:14PM (#39336473)
Yeah, and taking humans who hate bikes out of the equation - I basically stopped biking because several drivers literally tried to run me down (on a residential street no less).
Re:Waymo car vandalized and lit on fire in San Francisco by ehnto on Monday February 12, 2024 @01:00AM (#39341910)
I think there is a misunderstanding of why cars are dangerous to cyclists and how to fix it. There are only two proven methods, slow car traffic right down til it is essentially co-mingling with pedestrians, or separate the two types of traffic completely. Automating cars changes neither of those. Maybe your lycra clad road cyclist doing 40kmph could co-exist with cars passing them at 60kmph+ but if you wouldn't let your kids cycle there then it's not actually safe. I would not trust a kid riding in a painted bike lane next to Tesla, even if it is less likely to hit them due to distractions there is still a whole host of things that can go wrong and then you face the fundamental issue of a speed and mass mismatch.

Changing the roads and infrastructure is the only way to avoid that fundamental physics problem.

Re:Waymo car vandalized and lit on fire in San Francisco by bkettle on Monday February 12, 2024 @02:24AM (#39342393)
In general I completely agree that updating infrastructure to create dedicated spaces for non-car modes is the only way forward.

But given how politically difficult it is to change--and especially to take away--existing infrastructure, and how much easier politically it is to introduce new tech, I hold out a smidgen of hope that driverless cars might help us inch in the right direction. Because they'll be managed by companies rather than individuals, they almost certainly will be required to adhere strictly to speed limits and other traffic laws, can be programmed to give bikers and pedestrians a wide berth, and won't (I hope dearly) get road rage. With luck and a sufficient volume of autonomous cars, this could help more people be comfortable riding with cars until we can get enough political will to build some decent infrastructure for non-car-users. And at this point I'll take what I can get to keep the ball rolling (and hopefully accelerating a bit) towards a friendlier future.

Re:Waymo car vandalized and lit on fire in San Francisco by basisword on Monday February 12, 2024 @01:40PM (#39348590)
As a pedestrian who doesn't drive and doesn't cycle, in 10 years living in a major city (with decent cycling infrastructure) I've had 0 close calls with cars, and 4 very dangerous close calls with cyclists. In all cases, they were driving through red lights as pedestrians crossed, not signalling when turning, or ignoring other basic rules of the road. If we got rid of all car traffic and replaced it with cyclists, I am not confident things would be safer.
Re:Waymo car vandalized and lit on fire in San Francisco by aoeusnth1 on Saturday February 17, 2024 @09:43PM (#39415638)
Collisions with cyclists may be just as likely per mile, but they are far less deadly.
Re:Waymo car vandalized and lit on fire in San Francisco by whazor on Sunday February 11, 2024 @11:51AM (#39336253)
Lets assume we would make self driving mandatory.

It could:

- reduce parking, so stuff can be more nearby

- reduced car ownership, waymo is not gonna let you buy a car from them

- walking 5 min to tram/metro might become interesting. Especially if there are no taxis available.

- cities can limit traffic, for example by reducing lanes and people might only notice by increased cost of taxi.

- people would not find out if you remove a couple of roads, they are checking their phones anyways.

Note that you could get rid of normal cars by increasing parking costs