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Re:Undisclosed tinkering in Excel behind economics paper by grey-area on Sunday February 11, 2024 @02:29AM (#39333221)
The title is a bit odd. The article details a sloppy use of substitute data from adjacent rows or even columns to fill gaps in data, excel has little to do with it. The worst example is using United Kingdom data to fill gaps in USA data because they were adjacent in the list.
Re:Undisclosed tinkering in Excel behind economics paper by smt88 on Sunday February 11, 2024 @03:01AM (#39333321)
Excel has everything to do with it. From the article:

> In email correspondence seen by Retraction Watch and a follow-up Zoom call, Heshmati told the student he had used Excel’s autofill function to mend the data.

The most charitable interpretation is that the professor has no idea what autofill is or isn't capable of doing, so he misused it.

Re:Undisclosed tinkering in Excel behind economics paper by grey-area on Sunday February 11, 2024 @03:08AM (#39333352)
That’s not even the worst case though, worse by far than interpolating (whatever method is used) is simply taking data from countries with a similar name to fill gaps.
Re:Undisclosed tinkering in Excel behind economics paper by InSteady on Sunday February 11, 2024 @08:12AM (#39334762)
"What was your rational for using data from the Netherlands to fill in the missing values in New Zealand?"

"Um, both countries start with the letter N"

Re:Undisclosed tinkering in Excel behind economics paper by jakeinspace on Sunday February 11, 2024 @03:31PM (#39338374)
Should’ve used Denmark rather than Netherlands, as it’s the Old Zealand.
Re:Undisclosed tinkering in Excel behind economics paper by kgwgk on Sunday February 11, 2024 @03:22AM (#39333408)
Do _you_ have an idea of what autofill is and what is or isn’t capable of doing?

When he dragged down a selection he _saw_ the values being copied or a trend being extrapolated.

Re:Undisclosed tinkering in Excel behind economics paper by LeifCarrotson on Sunday February 11, 2024 @08:41AM (#39334917)
Flash Fill and Series Fill are great at recognizing simple patterns like 1,2,3,4,5 or 2,4,6,8,10 and can sometimes (unreliably!) recognize more complicated multiplications, repetitions or formulaic string modifications (like house numbers and street names). I use both frequently.

But neither these tools nor an LLM has real understanding, they're not going out into the real world and collecting data. The results need to be verified. Automatically filling an index column with 1,2,3... is one thing, automatically filling a data column with guesses from pattern matching is different. This problem is only going to get worse as LLMs proliferate and can more reliably but still imperfectly and still opaquely fill in more complicated data.

Re:Undisclosed tinkering in Excel behind economics paper by smt88 on Sunday February 11, 2024 @03:11PM (#39338192)
I don't use autofill precisely because I have no insight into the algorithm behind it. I suspect it's very "stupid," but I don't know exactly how stupid it is.

It sounds like he didn't realize or notice that autofill was using adjacent cells (from other countries, in this instance). That behavior would shock me as well. I thought autofill only took columns of data into account.

Re:Undisclosed tinkering in Excel behind economics paper by kgwgk on Monday February 12, 2024 @01:46AM (#39342199)
> It sounds like he didn't realize or notice that autofill was using adjacent cells (from other countries, in this instance).

No, it doesn’t sound like that: “in several instances where there were no observations to use for the autofill operation, the professor had taken the values from an adjacent country in the spreadsheet.”

It was not Excel’s fault.

Re:Undisclosed tinkering in Excel behind economics paper by secondcoming on Sunday February 11, 2024 @09:57AM (#39335387)
Right, but the mistake wasn't an issue with Excel, it was with the professor misusing it.
Re:Undisclosed tinkering in Excel behind economics paper by kurthr on Sunday February 11, 2024 @12:42PM (#39336759)
Might as well blame ChatGPT for writing your term paper.

If they'd been using R/Matlab/Python written by a copilot it would have been just as much gibberish.

Re:Undisclosed tinkering in Excel behind economics paper by smt88 on Sunday February 11, 2024 @03:14PM (#39338221)
Yes, I understand that and agree.

The headline isn't blaming Excel. "Undisclosed tinkering in Excel" is not far from the accurate headline: "Misuse of commonly-used Excel tool..."

The interesting thing is that a supposedly sophisticated person was using an unsophisticated tool and then relying on the data it produced. Failing to mention "Excel" in this case is doing a disservice to the thrust of the problem.

Re:Undisclosed tinkering in Excel behind economics paper by grey-area on Monday February 12, 2024 @03:36AM (#39342777)
The accurate headline would be incomplete data falsified.

The tools have nothing to do with it, and the same could have been done with paper and pencil. Autocomplete is the problem, it just repeats a single number or a series, and when using it you see exactly what the results were.

This was not done by mistake or in ignorance or because the tool encouraged them, it was done to knowingly falsify incomplete data so that they could finish their paper and publish.

Re:Undisclosed tinkering in Excel behind economics paper by riedel on Sunday February 11, 2024 @03:07AM (#39333346)
Such things are encouraged by the excel UI because it fails to make relationships and manual corrections easily visible. The human computer interface matters beyond UX.
Re:Undisclosed tinkering in Excel behind economics paper by martynr on Sunday February 11, 2024 @03:44AM (#39333508)
Surely this can’t be justified as a ux driven “oversight” - I am not an economics professor but I would be feeling totally sketchy if I manipulated a data source in such an apparently arbitrary manner.

In combination with the (reportedly)blatant lack of any reference to the methodology in his paper this feels like wilful gross misconduct in professor-land.

IMO this sort of thing rightly undermines confidence and credibility of research in a much broader context and should be a sackable matter if shown to be true as asserted.

Re:Undisclosed tinkering in Excel behind economics paper by csydas on Sunday February 11, 2024 @07:30AM (#39334576)
I get what you're saying, but I would disagree that the focus should be on Excel and its UI/UX. As annoying as Excel is when you're working with _specific_ data that suffers from Excel's attempts to be helpful, I'd wager for most use cases Excel is doing exactly what most users expect it to, or the change is benign at best for most use cases.

That isn't to diminish when Excel's help has disastrous consequences, but rather to say it shouldn't be unexpected. If your data requires precision, there are better tools than Excel for working with your data and there should be steps taken by more experienced members of the team to ensure the team doesn't get bit by Excel's features. Excel's behaviors are well known and I'd have to imagine at least one member of any research team has been bitten by Excel's assistance features before during research. I would be surprised if any serious educational institution that teaches about ethics and common pitfalls in research *didn't* caution about how Excel might corrupt research [0].

0 - Okay, maybe not _that_ surprised, but I would be disappointed and think less of the institution/instructor.

Re:Undisclosed tinkering in Excel behind economics paper by croes on Sunday February 11, 2024 @03:19AM (#39333388)
Excel makes such things convenient
Re:Undisclosed tinkering in Excel behind economics paper by scotty79 on Sunday February 11, 2024 @03:04AM (#39333332)
Also Netherlands to New Zealand. Hilarious.
Re:Undisclosed tinkering in Excel behind economics paper by bouncing on Sunday February 11, 2024 @03:11AM (#39333361)
And United States <~> United Kingdom.

To compare OECD countries.

What’s the point of even doing the research?

Re:Undisclosed tinkering in Excel behind economics paper by geysersam on Sunday February 11, 2024 @03:40AM (#39333493)
To write papers
Re:Undisclosed tinkering in Excel behind economics paper by fransje26 on Sunday February 11, 2024 @06:01AM (#39334179)
Personally, I prefer using data from Uruguay to cover the holes in the United States data.