News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:A rent-stabilized 1 bedroom apartment for $1,100 In NYC? ... by anovikov on Saturday February 10, 2024 @10:33AM (#39326844)
It can and does work in many places. Whole cities like Stockholm mostly consist of rent-controlled apartments which have same rents paid since WWII era, which now amount to almost nothing. It creates awful social distortions and indirect costs, but it certainly does work.
Re:A rent-stabilized 1 bedroom apartment for $1,100 In NYC? ... by BurningFrog on Saturday February 10, 2024 @10:50AM (#39327025)
It works in the sense that the system keeps existing, but it doesn't work in the sense that affordable rental housing exists for everyone.

Ask anyone actually living in Stockholm, and you'll hear how the system really works. Last I heard there was a 20 year wait to get an apartment the legal way.

Re:A rent-stabilized 1 bedroom apartment for $1,100 In NYC? ... by FredPret on Saturday February 10, 2024 @10:42AM (#39326925)
Supply and demand determines rent; if you have enough supply and also rent control, then you'll have have rent control that magically "works".

But it's always supply and demand that gets the upper hand in the end. If there's a shortage of supply, and you put in more market rules & regulations, costs will shift elsewhere (like the broker in the article) or the black market will simply grow to clear the market.

[dead]
Re:A rent-stabilized 1 bedroom apartment for $1,100 In NYC? ... by FredPret on Saturday February 10, 2024 @10:55AM (#39327086)
Just think logically about this for a second.

If landlords determined rent, why isn't rent infinite?

There is some force that pushes rent down from the infinite amount of dollars that landlords would love to have. That force is competition from other landlords.

Supply and demand.

Re:A rent-stabilized 1 bedroom apartment for $1,100 In NYC? ... by polygamous_bat on Saturday February 10, 2024 @11:03AM (#39327173)
Think logically for one more second. Very similar logic applies for health insurance/cost of college/rent, because those are “unavoidable” in some ways if you want to live (with dignity, because homeless people are still alive I guess).

The only reason health insurance/college/rent costs near infinite dollars rather than actual infinite dollars is because price hikes work best when they are hiked slowly every year instead of all at once. Health insurers/bloated college admins/landlords would (rationally) love to have infinite dollars, as they have a stranglehold on a necessary resource, except that’s probably a quick path to the guillotines coming out.

Re:A rent-stabilized 1 bedroom apartment for $1,100 In NYC? ... by bsdpufferfish on Saturday February 10, 2024 @11:34AM (#39327509)
> those are “unavoidable”

This myth has been reviewed by economists over and over. You can always economize and it naturally occurs on both the demand and supply side. I'm not saying these outcomes are good, but people WILL do them.

Housing demand: live in a smaller place, live with more people, live further away than you want to, live in a van

Housing supply: rent out your extra room, try to build a rental (collect sweet premium)

College demand: community college + transfer, alternative education, maximize credits/minimize time

College supply: offer online degrees, price discriminate (financial aid) ,make cheaper offerings (undergrad only universities, etc).

Health Demand: don't go to the doctor, follow insurance incentives (urgent care vs ER), seek alternative treatment (chiropractors, neighbors, etc).

Health supply: maximize services can be performed by less trained workers (nurse practitioner vs MD, Offer lower end services (Telehealth, etc).

> "unavoidable"

When you see how many choices you have this starts to sound like "I have become accustomed to my quality of life, and I am unwilling to accept economic reality and consider alternatives." This is a natural response to declining standards of living.

Re:A rent-stabilized 1 bedroom apartment for $1,100 In NYC? ... by polygamous_bat on Saturday February 10, 2024 @01:24PM (#39328816)
So our choice is to either legally discourage rent seeking behavior in certain necessary parts of our life (health, housing, education) OR “live in a van… don’t go to a doctor … go to community college” just so the overlords could keep making profits on their investments. I wonder why not more people are signing up for the latter.
Re:A rent-stabilized 1 bedroom apartment for $1,100 In NYC? ... by bsdpufferfish on Saturday February 10, 2024 @02:51PM (#39329592)
No. The point is that these actions at the margin put pressure on prices. People do have an alternative and will not just pay any price. I suspect you're feeling what I described at the end.
Re:A rent-stabilized 1 bedroom apartment for $1,100 In NYC? ... by matwood on Saturday February 10, 2024 @10:50AM (#39327031)
No they don't. The market determines rent. Lower demand or raise supply and watch prices drop, regardless of what the landlords want.
Re:A rent-stabilized 1 bedroom apartment for $1,100 In NYC? ... by polygamous_bat on Saturday February 10, 2024 @10:59AM (#39327125)
Market determines rent the same way market determines the cost of health insurance: people need a place to live the same way they need a doctor when they’re sick. If all the landlords are using collusion software to raise rent in tandem [0] what is your alternative, live in the streets until they give in?

[0] https://www.propublica.org/article/yieldstar-rent-increase-r...

Re:A rent-stabilized 1 bedroom apartment for $1,100 In NYC? ... by flavius29663 on Saturday February 10, 2024 @11:39AM (#39327585)
This is not a good analogy. When you are sick, you need to get treatment, you're time constrained and usually space constrained too (you wouldn't travel 3 states out if you need an urgent procedure).

With housing it's more flexible: you can commute longer each day. You can just not move to a city where you know the "salary/cost of living" is not working in your favor. You can also time these decisions: go to NYC when you are in your 20s, live with some roommates to get some savings and then when you get older you can move to a more spacious city. You can be flexible about the space you need too: from 1 bedroom in a shared apartment, to a 3 beds detached house in a quiet suburb in another city, there is a lot of flexibility.

In a city there is a constraint on how much you can build, and everybody wants to be there. You can let the free market set the price, or you can try to distort the market with rent controls and then you end up with black markets, illegal payments, people holding on to their apartment for way longer they would normally do etc. Why would a 1 person ever move out of a large apartment if they have a low rent? They don't care that the same apartment would be a god-send for a family of 4...

Re:A rent-stabilized 1 bedroom apartment for $1,100 In NYC? ... by polygamous_bat on Saturday February 10, 2024 @01:26PM (#39328843)
> With housing it's more flexible: you can commute longer each day. You can just not move to a city where you know the "salary/cost of living" is not working in your favor. You can also time these decisions: go to NYC when you are in your 20s, live with some roommates to get some savings and then when you get older you can move to a more spacious city. You can be flexible about the space you need too: from 1 bedroom in a shared apartment, to a 3 beds detached house in a quiet suburb in another city, there is a lot of flexibility.

You _really_ think people aren’t already doing that, huh. Rents are too damn high AFTER all these options have been exhausted, and not because (as Fox News will happily tell you) people are lazy and entitled.

Re:A rent-stabilized 1 bedroom apartment for $1,100 In NYC? ... by flavius29663 on Sunday February 11, 2024 @10:33AM (#39335662)
I am a renter myself, and I don't watch Fox. I much rather prefer living in cities(and I lived in expensive ones) where I can budget my rent on the free market, rather than be at the mercy of black markets, wait lists of 20 years and decrepit buildings that barely pass code.
Re:A rent-stabilized 1 bedroom apartment for $1,100 In NYC? ... by bsdpufferfish on Saturday February 10, 2024 @11:40AM (#39327601)
> If all the landlords are using collusion

The market for housing in a metropolitan area cannot be organized. Everyone is a landlord. If rent spikes to 100k a year, I'm going to throw away shit so I can rent my 2nd bedroom for 50k, and the cycle continues down.

Re:A rent-stabilized 1 bedroom apartment for $1,100 In NYC? ... by polygamous_bat on Saturday February 10, 2024 @01:28PM (#39328861)
Why would you rent for 50K if you can rent for 100K? Are you an economically irrational actor?

Same applies for landlord who could either undercut the competition or join the “app” (aka collusion ring) to make higher profit.

Re:A rent-stabilized 1 bedroom apartment for $1,100 In NYC? ... by bsdpufferfish on Saturday February 10, 2024 @02:50PM (#39329582)
In that scenario it's a shared place vs your own.

> collusion ring

Once again, markets for such a commonly desired good are not 5-10 or even 100 participants. They are unstructured webs of opportunities and favors.

Re:A rent-stabilized 1 bedroom apartment for $1,100 In NYC? ... by scld on Saturday February 10, 2024 @11:13AM (#39327270)
The problem is that the market determines the rent but the government determines that building houses is mostly illegal.
Re:A rent-stabilized 1 bedroom apartment for $1,100 In NYC? ... by polygamous_bat on Saturday February 10, 2024 @01:30PM (#39328884)
“Government” isn’t a magical boogeyman coming out of a magical swamp to make magical laws. It’s literally NIMBYs, which are largely current property holders which are also in large part landlords. They’re playing the game to the full extent, and it’s high time they are contested in the same game.
Re:A rent-stabilized 1 bedroom apartment for $1,100 In NYC? ... by BurningFrog on Saturday February 10, 2024 @10:52AM (#39327056)
Landlords can ask for any amount, but supply and demand determines how much they can get.
Re:A rent-stabilized 1 bedroom apartment for $1,100 In NYC? ... by aetherson on Saturday February 10, 2024 @11:01AM (#39327148)
To the exact same extent that you determine your salary. Full stop.
Re:A rent-stabilized 1 bedroom apartment for $1,100 In NYC? ... by IncreasePosts on Saturday February 10, 2024 @10:41AM (#39326916)
I'm sure it works for the residents of Stockholm, but not so much for all sorts of people who would move to Stockholm but can't wait in line 10 years for an apartment.
Re:A rent-stabilized 1 bedroom apartment for $1,100 In NYC? ... by BeFlatXIII on Saturday February 10, 2024 @12:20PM (#39328092)
…and why should the current residents of Stockholm give a toss about the people who aren't there but want to move in and drive up prices?
Re:A rent-stabilized 1 bedroom apartment for $1,100 In NYC? ... by IncreasePosts on Saturday February 10, 2024 @01:51PM (#39329081)
I don't think anyone said they should. However, to the extent that the housing policies are determined by larger-than-local government agencies, there shouldn't be some citizens getting a large benefit and similar citizens getting the shaft.
Re:A rent-stabilized 1 bedroom apartment for $1,100 In NYC? ... by jrockway on Saturday February 10, 2024 @12:59PM (#39328512)
Because of economies of scale, the incremental increase in tax revenue that a new resident provides is more money than it costs to have one more resident in the city.
Re:A rent-stabilized 1 bedroom apartment for $1,100 In NYC? ... by anovikov on Saturday February 10, 2024 @10:51AM (#39327042)
Yes that's right! 10 years is an understatement. It means simply that the city is "locked out" for everyone but locals who inherited rental contract from their grandfathers, or multimillionaire cash buyers.
Re:A rent-stabilized 1 bedroom apartment for $1,100 In NYC? ... by htag on Saturday February 10, 2024 @10:59AM (#39327129)
Maybe this is the hack for managing city growth
Re:A rent-stabilized 1 bedroom apartment for $1,100 In NYC? ... by imtringued on Saturday February 10, 2024 @11:26AM (#39327410)
Why do you want successful cities to stop growing? Especially ones that have zero desire to stop attracting employers. Offices take up very little space so if you let developers build commercial real estate you will always have a mismatch between housing and jobs if you stop building residential real estate. This will displace lower income people in the end and lead to gentrification rather than a stop to growth.
Re:A rent-stabilized 1 bedroom apartment for $1,100 In NYC? ... by toast0 on Saturday February 10, 2024 @12:19PM (#39328079)
Having a mechanism to reduce growth is actually great.

It's hard to increase transportation infrastructure in a built-up area. And when you do, everybody says it didn't work because traffic is still bad or trains are still overfull. But they never notice that population increased during construction. If you could stop growth, then your transportation needs stabilize.

Doesn't really feel fair to me though, because it's so hard to move into the closed city.

Personally, I'm a fan of limiting rent increases to a max of something like 5-10% per year. Not so much that it's a total hardship to deal with a max increase; not so little that landlords have to do max increases every year or get way off market; also not so little that a landlord can't catch up later if they purposefully lag on increases to keep a preferred tenant.

Re:A rent-stabilized 1 bedroom apartment for $1,100 In NYC? ... by Our_Benefactors on Saturday February 10, 2024 @10:35AM (#39326860)
> It creates awful social distortions and indirect costs, but it certainly does work.

I don't think this meets the criteria most would consider “working”.

Re:A rent-stabilized 1 bedroom apartment for $1,100 In NYC? ... by hedora on Saturday February 10, 2024 @10:45AM (#39326965)
Sweden is often used as a case study in how rent controls lead to housing shortages.

Rent control tries to make housing more affordable by reducing the cost, which immediately reduces the supply. At that point, rent control ends up increasing housing costs.

Theory and real-world case studies mean that this is so obvious, that I just assume anyone that's passed economics 101 and is advocating for rent control is either grossly incompetent, currently very drunk, or is disingenuous and actually wants to use the power of the government to make sure other people cannot obtain secure and stable housing.

Re:A rent-stabilized 1 bedroom apartment for $1,100 In NYC? ... by matwood on Saturday February 10, 2024 @10:52AM (#39327049)
> Theory and real-world case studies mean that this is so obvious, that I just assume anyone that's passed economics 101 and is advocating for rent control is either grossly incompetent, currently very drunk, or is disingenuous and actually wants to use the power of the government to make sure other people cannot obtain secure and stable housing.

Or they are one of the lucky few living in a rent controlled apartment.

Re:A rent-stabilized 1 bedroom apartment for $1,100 In NYC? ... by anovikov on Saturday February 10, 2024 @10:52AM (#39327061)
Well, you can't have a working democracy, market economy, and affordable housing at same time. Something has to give.
Re:A rent-stabilized 1 bedroom apartment for $1,100 In NYC? ... by lttlrck on Saturday February 10, 2024 @11:27AM (#39327421)
I'm fascinated by this statement. Where does it come from?
Re:A rent-stabilized 1 bedroom apartment for $1,100 In NYC? ... by anovikov on Saturday February 10, 2024 @12:01PM (#39327874)
Well, remove democracy and what people want on a local level (preserve and grow value of their owned homes by limiting development) will not matter - and developers will built out so many homes housing will become affordable. Like in Russia for example - housing is cheap there exactly because it is an industrialised nation without democracy.

Remove market economy and the Party will distribute housing as it sees fit, and you have affordable housing, like in the Soviet Union.

Otherwise, inevitably housing will cease to be accessible once a bit more than 50% of population is happy with their housing conditions - then they will vote for people who will help them build value of their house by locking out the underhoused minority.

I can't see a fix to this that won't undermine either democracy (by somehow making people's political choices matter less or not at all, openly or covertly, aka "Putin elections"), or market economy. Both of which sounds worse than just putting up with unaffordable housing.

Re:A rent-stabilized 1 bedroom apartment for $1,100 In NYC? ... by BurningFrog on Saturday February 10, 2024 @11:11AM (#39327250)
Sweden had all three before rent control was "temporarily" instituted during WW2.