News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Better Call GPT, Comparing Large Language Models Against ... by onetimeuse92304 on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @01:06PM (#39277986)
> Laywers hoard their contracts and it was very difficult in our journey to find lawyers who would be willing to write contracts we would turn into templates because they are essentially putting themselves and their professional community out of income streams in the future.

I notice same things in other professions, especially where it requires a huge upfront investment in education.

For example (at least where I live), there was a time about 20 years ago where architects also didn't want to produce designs that would be then sold to multiple people for cheap. The thinking was that this reduces market for architecture output. But of course it is easy to see that most people do not really need a unique design.

So the problem solved itself because the market does not really care and the moment somebody is able to compile a small library of usable designs and a usable business model, as an architect, you can either cooperate to salvage what you can or lose.

I believe the same comes for lawyers. Lawyers will live through some harsh time while their easiest and most lucrative work gets automated and the market for their services is going to shrink and whatever work is left for them will be of the more complex kind that the automation can't handle.

Re:Better Call GPT, Comparing Large Language Models Against ... by adra on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @01:17PM (#39278142)
I think you greatly underestimate this group to retain their position as a monopoly. A huge chunk of politicians are lawyers, and most legal jurisdictions have hard requirements around what work you must have a lawyer to perform. These tools may make their practices more efficient internally, but it doesn't mean that value is being passed on to the consumer of the service in any way. They're a cartel and one with very close relationships with country leadership. I don't see this golden goose souring any time soon.
Re:Better Call GPT, Comparing Large Language Models Against ... by onetimeuse92304 on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @03:21PM (#39280001)
I think what you are missing is businesses doing what businesses have always been doing: finding a niche for themselves to make a good profit.

When you can hire less lawyers and get more work done and cheaper and at the same (or better) quality, you are going to upend the market for lawyering services.

And this does not require to replace lawyers. It is just enough to equip a lawyer with a set of tools to help them quickly do the typical tasks they are doing.

I work a lot with lawyers and a lot of what they are doing is going to be stupidly easily optimised with AI tools.

Re:Better Call GPT, Comparing Large Language Models Against ... by d0odk on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @03:29PM (#39280109)
Please elaborate with some examples of what legal work you think will be optimized with AI tools.
Re:Better Call GPT, Comparing Large Language Models Against ... by __loam on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @03:58PM (#39280500)
Sometimes it feels like people look at GPT and think "This thing does words! Law is words! I should start a company!" but they actually haven't worked in legal tech at all and don't know anything about the vertical.
Re:Better Call GPT, Comparing Large Language Models Against ... by d0odk on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @04:27PM (#39280892)
It's a logical reaction, at least superficially, to the touted capabilities of Gen AI and LLMs. But once you start trying to use the tech for actual legal applications, it doesn't do anything useful. It would be great if some mundane legal tasks could be automated away--for example negotiation of confidentiality agreements. One would think that if LLMs are capable of replacing lawyers, they could do something along those lines. But I have not seen any evidence that they can do so effectively, and I have been actively looking into it.

One of the top comments on this thread says that LLMs are going to better at summarizing contracts than generating them. I've heard this in legal tech product demos as well. I can see some utility to that--for example, automatically generating abstracts of key terms (like term, expiration, etc.) for high-level visibility. That said, I've been told by legal tech providers that LLMs don't do a great job with some basic things like total contract value.

I question how the document summarizing capabilities of LLMs will impact the way lawyers serve business organizations. Smart businesspeople already know how to read contracts. They don't need lawyers to identify / highlight basic terms. They come to lawyers for advice on close calls--situations where the contract is unclear or contradictory, or where there is a need for guidance on applying the contract in a real-world scenario and assessing risk.

Overall I'm less enthusiastic about the potential for LLMs in the legal space than I was six months ago. But I continue to keep an eye on developments and experiment with new tools. I'd love to get some feedback from others on this board who are knowledgeable.

As a side note, I'm curious if anyone knows about the impact of context window on contract interpretation a lot of contracts are quite long and have sections that are separated by a lot of text that nonetheless interact with each other for purposes of a correct interpretation.

Re:Better Call GPT, Comparing Large Language Models Against ... by __loam on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @04:54PM (#39281238)
I think one of the biggest problems with LLMs is the accountibility problem. When a lawyer tells you something, their reputation and career are on the line. There's a large incentive to get things right. LLMs will happily spread believable bullshit.
Re:Better Call GPT, Comparing Large Language Models Against ... by d0odk on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @05:00PM (#39281331)
In fairness some lawyers will too, haha. I take your point, though. Good lawyers care about their reputation and strive to protect it.
Re:Better Call GPT, Comparing Large Language Models Against ... by freejazz on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @05:11PM (#39281478)
Lawyers are legally liable to their clients for their advice, it's a lot more than just reputation and career.
Re:Better Call GPT, Comparing Large Language Models Against ... by treprinum on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @05:37PM (#39281808)
A friend of mine is a highly ranked lawyer, a past general consul of multiple large enterprises. I sent him this paper, he played with ChatGPT-3.5 (not even GPT-4) and contract creation, he said it was 99% fine and then told me he's glad he is slowly retiring from law and is not envious of any up-and-coming lawyers entering the profession. One voice from the vertical.
Re:Better Call GPT, Comparing Large Language Models Against ... by vasilipupkin on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @07:52PM (#39283091)
General Consul? Is he a Roman general ?
Re:Better Call GPT, Comparing Large Language Models Against ... by dkga on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @09:08PM (#39283613)
That’s why he exited the market - it’s tough out there for Roman consuls and other Latin-based professions generally.
Re:Better Call GPT, Comparing Large Language Models Against ... by psunavy03 on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @06:23PM (#39282302)
Re:Better Call GPT, Comparing Large Language Models Against ... by TeMPOraL on Wednesday February 07, 2024 @01:02AM (#39285058)
People started companies and succeeded for dumber reasons. Generalized "businessing" skills and placing yourself somewhere in the space where money is made counts for much more than actually knowing anything about specific product beforehand.
Re:Better Call GPT, Comparing Large Language Models Against ... by onetimeuse92304 on Wednesday February 07, 2024 @05:14AM (#39286705)
That's a very good point.

I would add, that sometimes being a newcomer is a benefit. Many times a particular industry is stuck in groupthink, having shared understanding on what is and what isn't possible. And it sometimes requires a person with a fresh perspective to be able to upend it. See example of Elon upending multiple industries by essentially doing exactly that.

Re:Better Call GPT, Comparing Large Language Models Against ... by Spooky23 on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @09:11PM (#39283626)
Lots of corporate and government law work.

It’s just like programmers and artists. As the tools improve, you’ll need fewer, smarter humans.

Re:Better Call GPT, Comparing Large Language Models Against ... by onlyrealcuzzo on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @10:14PM (#39284018)
Yeah, lawyers will go away as soon as doctors do.

AI has outperformed radiologists for a while now, and I don't care how much better AI performs, radiologists aren't going away.

Radiologists get to decide the laws of the field essentially.

Why would they vote to kick themselves out of the highest paying job in the world?

Like the medical industry, the legal industry is designed around costing you as much as possible - not really anything related to your benefits.

I just can't see disruption here. The industry will wail against it tooth and nail at every chance.

Re:Better Call GPT, Comparing Large Language Models Against ... by epcoa on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @10:54PM (#39284306)
> AI has outperformed radiologists for a while now

Refer me to the evidence where AI is outperforming radiologists in the entire body of cross-sectional imaging. Are you seriously claiming that there is AI technology today that can take a brain MRI or CT A/P and produce a full findings and impression without human intervention? You have a reference for that?

Re:Better Call GPT, Comparing Large Language Models Against ... by ramoz on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @10:52PM (#39284291)
Do you work in the medical industry? (To be Frank it sounds like you’re spewing bs about a topic you have no intimate knowledge of - seems rather naive actually).
Re:Better Call GPT, Comparing Large Language Models Against ... by throwaway2037 on Wednesday February 07, 2024 @12:45AM (#39284946)
What is a realistic compromise?
Re:Better Call GPT, Comparing Large Language Models Against ... by rscho on Wednesday February 07, 2024 @01:22AM (#39285166)
I'm a doctor and I've been following this saga for a while. What you wrote does not match my experience. Firstly, you overestimate our political reach by a large margin. If you can have acceptable service for massively cheaper, it will happen regardless of any lobbying. What _is_ true, is that AI systems outperform docs for very select, often trivial situations (e.g. routine chest X-ray). I don't believe this would shrink the market for radiologists significantly. Secondly, the non-trivial work is exceedingly difficult to automate, because those cases currently have a prevalence to complexity ratio that make them impossible to train for. The US are making great strides towards that kind of thing, though. But not available yet.
Re:Better Call GPT, Comparing Large Language Models Against ... by onlyrealcuzzo on Wednesday February 07, 2024 @10:55AM (#39290049)
If you're counting mammograms as routine chest X-rays, AI has been able to outperform and do this substantially cheaper since 2019.

Yet this is not an option for patients, and likely won't be in the next 10 years.

Re:Better Call GPT, Comparing Large Language Models Against ... by rrr_oh_man on Wednesday February 07, 2024 @02:48PM (#39293329)
> Yet this is not an option for patients, and likely won't be in the next 10 years.

Happening in Austria since 2018-ish: https://contextflow.com/

Re:Better Call GPT, Comparing Large Language Models Against ... by epcoa on Thursday February 08, 2024 @01:03PM (#39305278)
The radiologist fee isn't even the majority of the cost of a mammogram in the US. There's a lot more to it that has nothing to do with any radiologist protectionism. AI outperforming on mammograms and a few other basic routine modalities and leading to conclude that this means the AI "outperforms" radiologists in general is like claiming programmers are obsolete because Makefiles can run build commands better. You don't even need AI for most automation. Somehow you still have a job.

As for Chest Xrays https://pubs.rsna.org/doi/10.1148/radiol.231236 AI has not even demonstrated superiority outside of "routine".

Maybe revisit this in a decade. But your entire argument was that we still have radiologists because of protectionism (and the lawyer case isn’t any more load bearing either). Seems a bit uninformed and premature.

Re:Better Call GPT, Comparing Large Language Models Against ... by faeriechangling on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @02:25PM (#39279228)
Lawyers are uniquely well equipped to legislate their continued employment into existence.
Re:Better Call GPT, Comparing Large Language Models Against ... by tiahura on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @09:13PM (#39283639)
Lawyers, yes. Junior associates, not so much.
Re:Better Call GPT, Comparing Large Language Models Against ... by ABCLAW on Wednesday February 07, 2024 @02:17AM (#39285533)
Kinda? Lawyers are myopic, vain, and we don't really do much to innovate.

We wanted to make sure there would be no cross pollination between legal advisory services and other professional services in most jurisdictions, but the only thing that division did was significantly restrict our ability to widen our service offerings to provide more value.

The end result is that we protected our little nest egg while our share of the professional services pie has been getting eaten by consulting and multi-service accounting firms for the past 20 years.

Re:Better Call GPT, Comparing Large Language Models Against ... by jacquesm on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @01:22PM (#39278230)
So, you will get the template for free. And then a lawyer has to put it on their letterhead and they charge you the exact same as they do right now for that because that will be made a requirement.
Re:Better Call GPT, Comparing Large Language Models Against ... by onetimeuse92304 on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @03:24PM (#39280037)
No. As a business owner you will hire couple lawyers, give them a bunch of programs to automate searching through texts, answering questions and writing legalese based on human description of what is the text supposed to do. These three are from my experience great majority of the work. The 2 people you hire will now perform like 10 people without tools. Then you will use part of that saved money to reduce prices and if you are business savvy, you will use the rest to research the automation further.

Then another business that wants to compete with you will no longer have an option, they will have to do this or more to be able to stay in the business at all.

Re:Better Call GPT, Comparing Large Language Models Against ... by adrianN on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @01:19PM (#39278186)
Lawyers seem to be the prime group to prevent this outcome using some kind regulation. Many politicians are lawyers.
Re:Better Call GPT, Comparing Large Language Models Against ... by freejazz on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @01:54PM (#39278758)
They were lawyers, they aren't still practicing attorneys representing clients.
Re:Better Call GPT, Comparing Large Language Models Against ... by Tostino on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @09:25PM (#39283715)
They moved into the much more lucrative career of representing corporations.
Re:Better Call GPT, Comparing Large Language Models Against ... by WanderPanda on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @01:17PM (#39278146)
IIRC about 40% of us politicians are lawyers, unfortunately I’m sure they will find a way to gatekeep these revenue streams for their peers.
Re:Better Call GPT, Comparing Large Language Models Against ... by pugworthy on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @04:02PM (#39280551)
I’m assuming by the use of “us” and “they” you meant US - not that you are a politician.
Re:Better Call GPT, Comparing Large Language Models Against ... by taneq on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @04:19PM (#39280779)
> I notice same things in other professions, especially where it requires a huge upfront investment in education.

Doctors, for instance. You hear no end of stories about how incredibly high pressure medicine is with insane hours and stress, but will they increase university placements so they can actually hire enough trained staff to meet the workload? Absolutely fkn not, that would impact salaries.

Re:Better Call GPT, Comparing Large Language Models Against ... by singleshot_ on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @06:00PM (#39282072)
University placements aren’t the problem. Medical residencies are funded through Medicare and have been numerically capped. You could graduate a million MDs a year and if none of them have a training pipeline, we still lose.
Re:Better Call GPT, Comparing Large Language Models Against ... by singleshot_ on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @05:44PM (#39281891)
“easiest and most lucrative work”

I think this overlooks a big part of how the legal market works. Our easiest work is only lucrative because we use it to train new lawyers, who bill at a lower rate. To the extent the easy stuff gets automated, 1) it’s going to be impossible to find work as a junior associate and 2) senior attorneys will do the same stuff they did last year. If there’s a decrease in prices for a while, great, but a generation from now it’s going to be a lot harder to find someone knowledgeable because the training pathway will have been destroyed.

Re:Better Call GPT, Comparing Large Language Models Against ... by matheusmoreira on Wednesday February 07, 2024 @07:05AM (#39287520)
I have no problem with your logic so long as it is applied uniformly to all of society. By that I mean society must abolish copyright, patents and all forms of intellectual property. Otherwise I'll be forced to defend lawyers in this case. Why can people hoard "IP" but lawyers can't hoard contracts?
Re:Better Call GPT, Comparing Large Language Models Against ... by TapWaterBandit on Wednesday February 07, 2024 @07:21AM (#39287657)
I don't think that is the point he is making.

More that lawyers will hoard contracts but there will be financial incentives to defect early (the idea being to sell your contracts while the price is high).

Then that lawyer's contracts will become the mass-produced "good enough" boilerplate and be used widely driving down the value of hoarding contracts at all.