Want good programmers? Then pay them.

Re:Want good programmers? Then pay them. by mhofer on Thursday May 03, 2012 @06:53AM (#3923155)

I am a Vienna-based programmer and am looking at job adverts regularly. I fully agree with what you have written, sometimes I feel they mus be joking. There is no appreciation for hackers and what they are worth. Take this advert for example: http://derstandard.at/anzeiger/derjob/d/155533/c-senior-soft... 5 years experience in C++ and only 2,500 EUR gross? Seriously?

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Re:Want good programmers? Then pay them. by seclorum on Thursday May 03, 2012 @07:04AM (#3923190)

I'm in Vienna and work for a local startup in the mobile application development scene .. and yeah. Pay-rates are definitely not what they should be, here in Austria. I think it has a lot to do with the "Kollektiv-vertrag" prices being set too low by the government itself ..

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Re:Want good programmers? Then pay them. by accountoftheday on Thursday May 03, 2012 @07:37AM (#3923308)

one way to think of it: with your average salary you are propping up all the people not as good as you who still get the same salary. if you cannot feel good about this you then move away from your socialist country. I did.

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Re:Want good programmers? Then pay them. by DominikR on Thursday May 03, 2012 @08:24AM (#3923504)

Well, I've been thinking about moving from Vienna to somewhere more competetive for some time (though its not about the money, I'm paid really well here - just about competition, which I happen to enjoy a lot), but the reasons for not doing it are some of the features you get when living in a more "socialist" (though I wouldn't call Austria socialist) country.

Security, low crime rate, very few homeless people, drug addicts etc.. I can basically go to a party, get drunk there and take a walk after that in any part of the city during night without being afraid that some homeless person will attack me. If you ask me, thats a big pro for staying here. Sure, I would probably earn more if I did the same job in San Francisco, but then I would have to deal with a much worse social situation, and I would have to be more cautious.

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Re:Want good programmers? Then pay them. by yummyfajitas on Thursday May 03, 2012 @09:06AM (#3923652)

Sure, I would probably earn more if I did the same job in San Francisco, but then I would have to deal with a much worse social situation, and I would have to be more cautious.

Does the crime rate actually differ much between SF and Vienna? A quick google search provides very little info, but suggests there is not much difference. I haven't been to SF lately, but crime is a negligible issue in NYC.

Though SF may be a special case - I've heard they have extremely generous benefits and the homeless move to SF to collect them. Can someone with more knowledge comment?

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Re:Want good programmers? Then pay them. by DominikR on Thursday May 03, 2012 @09:38AM (#3923771)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentiona...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_cities_by_crime_r...

San Francisco has more homicides with its population of ~800k than all of Austria combined with a population of 8,5 million.

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Re:Want good programmers? Then pay them. by base698 on Thursday May 03, 2012 @12:33PM (#3924528)

Almost all of them are gang related--YAY drug war! As an upper middle class software engineer it's not really a good argument.

Though the poverty and hopelessness can be a little sad if you walk through the bad areas.

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Re:Want good programmers? Then pay them. by DominikR on Thursday May 03, 2012 @01:40PM (#3924851)

I'm not saying life is bad in San Francisco, those statistics are just one part of the equasion. (the other parts: leaving behind family, friends, the good life I already have etc)

I am just against the notion that propping up that random incompetent guy (at least to some degree, so he wont roam the streets doing crazy stuff) is always a bad decision.

Preventing those people from failing miserably (and the negative side effects that come with it) - thats basically why we have a lower income over here.

And my pricetag for giving up all that is higher than just doubling my income.

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Re:Want good programmers? Then pay them. by rguzman on Thursday May 03, 2012 @05:19PM (#3925875)

The crime rate is probably different. But that is not really meaningful to your every day life since your life doesn't happen in the whole city. ie the crime rate is an aggregate.

I reckon the "effective" crime rate for the places of SF where someone with a developer's salary may choose to live are comparable to those of the similar places in Vienna. I bet the same goes for most other "quality of life" proxies.

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Re:Want good programmers? Then pay them. by seclorum on Thursday May 03, 2012 @08:01AM (#3923396)

Its definitely a point. Unfortunately I moved to this country, and have gotten too involved in it to be able to move easily (house, wife, kids..) or else I'd definitely move to a country where programmers are paid more what they're worth, not what the socialists want.

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Re:Want good programmers? Then pay them. by mhofer on Thursday May 03, 2012 @07:06AM (#3923196)

+1, which comes back to the low appreciation for hackers :-)

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Re:Want good programmers? Then pay them. by philipp-spiess on Thursday May 03, 2012 @07:12AM (#3923209)

/agree The "Kollektiv" is nice, but not for everybody.

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Re:Want good programmers? Then pay them. by amm on Thursday May 03, 2012 @07:28AM (#3923269)

I am from Vienna as well and I have been working for about 5 years in this city. From my experience, almost all numbers in job adverts are merely symbolic. You are supposed to negotiate. If you have some expertise and make a good impression, you can easily double the number in the advert.

As an austrian colleague once put it: Maul auf oder Geldbörsl auf!

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Re:Want good programmers? Then pay them. by irrlichthn on Thursday May 03, 2012 @07:00AM (#3923182)

You are right. But about that advert: Most people don't see that that's the minimum payment as demanded by the state. They actually pay more (and funnily, in that case, I know that company and they pay quite well and know to honor the skills of their developers). Kind of sad that recruiters in Austria haven't yet noticed that everybody thinks the minimum payment is not what people are interested in reading on there and confuse it with the actual payment.

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Re:Want good programmers? Then pay them. by mhofer on Thursday May 03, 2012 @07:05AM (#3923193)

I agree. The minimum salary notation is just stupid, but in engineering it is used often times. In Sales/PM/BizDev I mostly read "We pay 60,000 EUR or above" for jobs demanding 5 years of experience, which makes much more sense than the "2,500 EUR per month" in this advert.

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Re:Want good programmers? Then pay them. by nasmorn on Thursday May 03, 2012 @07:17AM (#3923226)

Really I didnt know that. I always thought they are crazy. But then I am a free lancer so I don't go interview.

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Re:Want good programmers? Then pay them. by Quiark on Thursday May 03, 2012 @05:54PM (#3926005)

Interesting. I was actually considering going to work in Vienna (not far from my current location, Brno). It's a really nice city.

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