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Re:Sega AI by wk_end on Wednesday January 31, 2024 @02:50PM (#39208450)
As a Sega nerd and a Prolog nerd, this is insanely cool to me. Even if it seems like the Prolog relationship might be some kind of marketing gimmick - it's not clear to me to what extent the games really are written in Prolog.
Re:Sega AI by ilaksh on Wednesday January 31, 2024 @03:56PM (#39209283)
It's called an "AI" computer. Prolog was AI in 1986. I don't see that as a gimmick. I also don't see why one would assume the concept was really about games except for the fact that we know Sega as a games company today.
Re:Sega AI by actionfromafar on Wednesday January 31, 2024 @04:36PM (#39209739)
Sega still makes these neat things: https://www.segatoys.space/en/public/flux.html
Re:Sega AI by theNJR on Wednesday January 31, 2024 @05:09PM (#39210119)
That’s really cool! Do you own one?
Re:Sega AI by actionfromafar on Wednesday January 31, 2024 @06:31PM (#39210989)
I do, actually. It’s just a projector, really, but it’s really neat. It’s analog so it has no pixels. It can rotate the starfield but the motor is noisy enough to disturb me when going to sleep, so I don’t use the motor.
Re:Sega AI by beebeepka on Wednesday January 31, 2024 @07:52PM (#39211655)
Do we have to buy all the cool discs one by one? Looks like a neat product, such a shame the motor is noisy because a little motion, just barely perceptible, would go a long way.

I would think people would throw good money for the same but better. I know I would.

Re:Sega AI by actionfromafar on Thursday February 01, 2024 @02:31AM (#39213571)
I bet many don't even notice the motor, but I do. It comes with two discs. I think you could put any slide film in there too, if you really wanted.
Re:Sega AI by tpmoney on Thursday February 01, 2024 @03:11AM (#39213767)
I have one of the original models and the motor noise is probably dependent on whether or not you're the sort of person who needs a perfectly quiet room or if you can sleep with a fan. If you have a ceiling fan (or any other noise maker, like a blowing AC system), you're almost certainly not going to hear the motor. IIRC, EEV blog tore one down and the whole rotating assembly is belt driven so that you don't have gear noise. The only thing I ever hear is a very slight hobby motor hum when everything is dead silent.

When you order it I think it comes with 2 discs, but yeah, all the others are individual orders, unless you want to order the 17 pack of third party discs for $300.

Other things to be aware of:

1) It looks really good, like good enough to feel like you really are out under the stars in a properly blacked out room. but getting the focus just right is fiddly and very easy to knock out of focus again

2) Like any projector it works best projecting straight on. I doubt you have space in the exact center of your room to project straight up, so be prepared to accept this will be a distorted projection. You get used to it and it doesn't really ruin the effect that much, but it's disappointing at first.

3) The 3 hour timer is built in and impossible to disable to the best of my knowledge. If you want it running all night, you'll want a smart plug or a programmable timer plug that can turn off for a few minutes intermittently. I found ~5 minutes every 2.5 hours to work well. Too short and the timer doesn't seem to reset.

4) There are some really nice 3rd party discs out there too, but their sharpness and overall realism varies greatly so be cautious when ordering.

Re:Sega AI by Apocryphon on Wednesday January 31, 2024 @04:38PM (#39209757)
Good time for Sega to bring it back
Re:Sega AI by wk_end on Wednesday January 31, 2024 @05:09PM (#39210113)
Sega was known as a games company then, too. They've always been a games company - the name Se-Ga stands for SErvice GAmes, because their original business was importing games for American servicemen stationed abroad to play in their leisure time. The most they've ever really deviated from being totally game-focused towards general-purpose computing is when they licensed out their hardware to be incorporated into computers like the TeraDrive.

I would assume the concept is about games because all of the software available for it looks to be edutainment games. More than anything, it feels like a predecessor to Sega's lines of educational game consoles like the Pico. There seems to be an association in Sega history between it and AI and education. As the link says:

> It does have some legacy though: starting with the Mega Drive, games on Sega platforms were required to have a ROM header. If it was a game, it was designated "GM", but educational software was designated "AI".

The "computer" here might be something of a misnomer - there wasn't quite so hard a line between consoles and home computers back then, especially outside of North America. After all, the NES was known as the "Family Computer" in Japan.

I'd describe it as a gimmick because it's not clear what exactly the association with Prolog is here, particularly for the end user:

> The Prolog interpreter appears to be used by existing software to allow some form of natural language processing. It doesn't seem accessible to the end-user. [...] The Prolog interpreter is for running applications only — it cannot be used for programming.

Sega might have pushed the AI/Prolog angle because, then-as-now, AI was a hot buzzword in tech. Japan in particular had bought into the AI/Prolog thing, due to the Fifth Generation Computer Systems project [0].

If the games mostly weren't written in Prolog, and the user can't use Prolog, but AI and Prolog were trendy at the time, I think calling it the AI Prolog to tap into that hype is a bit of a gimmick.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth_Generation_Computer_Syst...

Re:Sega AI by Grazester on Wednesday January 31, 2024 @03:00PM (#39208584)
I would love to hear which console you have in your collection if any. I was a SEGA fanboy back in the day and have had a few of their console dating back to the Master System
Re:Sega AI by wk_end on Wednesday January 31, 2024 @03:34PM (#39208985)
Genesis (MD), Sega (Mega) CD, Saturn, Dreamcast. The Master System was kind of a bust in North America so I don't carry very much nostalgia for it.

I love each of these consoles in their own way, by some combination of their own merits and my own associations of them.

The first game I ever played (or at least the first I remember) was Sonic 2, at a demo kiosk at a Canadian Tire while my mom was shopping. That's the sort of thing which sticks with you forever. At home we ended up getting an SNES, and although the SNES' highs were clearly higher than anything Sega put out, I think the average Genesis game holds up better (and it certainly has incredible gems of its own). The faster and easier to work with CPU, I think, gave devs a bit more breathing room; the FM synth has an iconic, crunchy, aggressive, alien sound that's way cooler than the canned, fuzzy, plinky soundscape of so many poorly-made SNES scores (of course, again: the best SNES soundtracks are sublime). You could put Go Straight from SoR2 on at a club now and get the dance floor going. The only thing about it that's dated badly is that it really, really could've used a richer colour palette.

As a kid I never had a Sega CD, but I did have a Windows 3.1 computer, and it feels part-and-parcel with that era of "multimedia". It's all nostalgia, but I love the grainy look of the FMV, the very particular abstract and geometric style of the CGI of the era, the metallic sheen of those digital CD soundtracks. It's got some fantastic games, too: Sonic CD is a classic, and Lunar 2 (particularly if you can read Japanese and don't need to endure everything Working Designs did to it) is, as far as I'm concerned, up there with FF6 and Chrono Trigger as a definitive 16-bit JPRG.

I of course understand why the Playstation won the 32-bit era, it's a better system than the Saturn with better games overall. But the Saturn has some absolute classics (again, Japanese knowledge helps here). It's not a system that I had much experience with at the time - except, again, for some time spent at a department store kiosk with Nights, which entranced me - but it's come to me to feel like the more interesting, mysterious machine than the Playstation.

The Dreamcast feels more like the end of the 32-bit era than the start of the next-gen: a 32-bit system with next-gen performance. To me the quintessential Dreamcast game is fast, buttery smooth, vibrant, colourful. Again, it's easy to see why the PS2 came out on top, but looking back now I see the PS2 era more as a trial run for "modern" gaming - dark, muddy, slow, clumsy versions of the sort of games we're playing now; whereas the Dreamcast was home to the absolute best of the games we were playing then.

Re:Sega AI by brabel on Wednesday January 31, 2024 @05:06PM (#39210067)
> The Master System was kind of a bust in North America so I don't carry very much nostalgia for it.

Not sure if that's true in most places, but at least in Brazil, the Master System was incredibly popular... I don't live there anymore, but around just 10 years ago I remember seeing it still for sale (though IIRC they used a different name then - but it was clearly the same) as a low cost game console (average people just can't afford a PlayStation). I had a Master System in the late 1980's and then a Mega Drive, and really loved them both... the Mega Drive was definitely a huge upgrade from the Master System (I was upgrading to Master System from Atari, which was a similarly big upgrade). I never upgraded again, to the Saturn, just because I stopped gaming almost completely for a while (I started playing in a rock band, it was the 1990's, all the cool kids were doing it)... and I got a PC (also Windows 3.1, classic Pentium 100MHz!) and started doing my gaming on it.

Re:Sega AI by wk_end on Wednesday January 31, 2024 @05:15PM (#39210176)
Yeah, the Master System was huge in Brazil. Sega was willing to license the design out to Tec Toy to manufacture locally, which got them around the massive import tariffs that made other systems unaffordable.

It was also very popular in Europe (and Australia?) - not sure if there's any real reason for that, but the consequence of it - this [0] absolutely incredible rap by two British teenagers - makes me very glad it was.

In North America and Japan, though, Nintendo absolutely commanded the market. Basically no one had a Master System.

[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ks0_3Xlr5y0

Re:Sega AI by mattl on Wednesday January 31, 2024 @11:34PM (#39212748)
Nintendo was pretty bad about marketing the NES in the UK at least. Sega did a much better job so more people had a Master System. I assume this is true for the rest of the region too.
Re:Sega AI by RajT88 on Wednesday January 31, 2024 @05:34PM (#39210380)
> Genesis (MD), Sega (Mega) CD, Saturn, Dreamcast. The Master System was kind of a bust in North America so I don't carry very much nostalgia for it.

Back before retro consoles were really collectible, I snapped up a giant pile of SMS stuff at a thrift shop for 35 USD.

I believe it was almost my whole collection:

- SMS 1st gen - 2 controllers - Light gun - A few card games in their original boxes - ~25 cart games, most of them in original boxes, some with manuals

When I was living with a friend post-college, we would actually play it a bunch. Dreamcast and PS2 as well.

Re:Sega AI by jbverschoor on Thursday February 01, 2024 @08:09AM (#39215557)
SEGA also made a few MSX machines
Re:Sega AI by cglong on Wednesday January 31, 2024 @03:12PM (#39208739)
Not GP, but I had a Genesis, CD, and Game Gear. A few years back I bought a Saturn off eBay too to play a leaked early build of Sonic X-treme :)
Re:Sega AI by SandmanDP on Wednesday January 31, 2024 @04:41PM (#39209797)
Is this the Jolly Roger restored build or a build of X-treme I haven’t heard of yet?
Re:Sega AI by Grazester on Wednesday January 31, 2024 @04:51PM (#39209909)
Something tells me it's someone's homebrew dev of Sonic x-treme. If it's that then the same developer also has a killer Quake style engine for the Saturn which is quite a showcase.
Re:Sega AI by cglong on Wednesday January 31, 2024 @09:40PM (#39212228)
It's been several years I guess but from following my own breadcrumbs, yeah I think it was the Jollyroger build.
Re:Sega AI by SandmanDP on Thursday February 01, 2024 @12:02AM (#39212864)
Darn. Thanks for checking though, I appreciate the effort
Re:Sega AI by beebeepka on Wednesday January 31, 2024 @07:58PM (#39211689)
I stopped caring about consoles decades ago but I still want the games. Why won't they just sell this stuff. I've been feeling the itch to play Bug! for like 20 years.
Re:Sega AI by Agingcoder on Wednesday January 31, 2024 @06:27PM (#39210944)
I’m neither , and think it’s insanely cool as well.
Re:Sega AI by neilv on Wednesday January 31, 2024 @07:46PM (#39211620)
Sounds like they had some kind of Prolog inferencing/runtime stored in ROM, and running on a normal early x86 CPU. Games packaged for the machine could call that runtime code, but Prolog wasn't exposed to the user. So there is the marketing aspect (that generation of "AI" hype, and government initiatives), plus whatever unusual functionality that enabled being exposed through games (e.g., simple natural language parsing).

A few years after this, a project I was loosely involved with tossed a Prolog interpreter into a much larger system that was mostly implemented in C, just to implement a reports query language feature for a complex data model. Years later, for a very similar purpose for a rich data model, we instead exposed SQL to the power user/integrator.

(Today, you'd probably do the custom reports by making a GUI forms-based or wizard-based way of doing custom queries, or overkill it with a drag&drop visual programming language. To do NLP-ish stuff this year, you'd be shot if you didn't first try to do it with an LLM.)

Re:Sega AI by rabbits77 on Thursday February 01, 2024 @09:26AM (#39216256)
From the article > The presumed software release timespan (at least 33 months between August 1986 > and May 1989) is particularly odd considering this is an extremely rare and > unknown system.

I wonder if there is a connection to Japan's FGCS project which was active during that time frame. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth_Generation_Computer_Syst...

It would make sense if Sega was involved and the activity on this "extremely rare and unknown system" was due to it being funded by research grants instead of purely commercial new product development. The FGCS was heavily invested in advancing Prolog based systems and that makes the possibility of a connection to this system even stronger.