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Re:CEOs Are Using Return to Office Mandates to Mask Poor Man... by shortrounddev2 on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @12:16PM (#39192776)
I read an advice column in the Washington Post a couple weeks ago [1] in which the person writing in was asking for advice about implementing RTO mandates. They work for a non-profit and found it hard to manage people remotely. Their complaints were:

> 1. They have daily check-in meetings with everyone on the team to make up for the lack of impromptu chats in the office

> 2. Collaboration is harder over email than in-person. As an example, they have to produce reports for stakeholders regularly, which requires input from several people. They sync their work by frequently emailing each other changes to the document

> 3. Socializing with coworkers is more difficult, which results in less social capital for people to advance their careers with

For each point, the author pointed out that there are simple technological and management solutions for each:

> 1. Stop doing daily check-ins and trust your reports to do their jobs on their own time table. You didn't do daily check-ins in the office, so don't do them now

> 2. Stop using email. It's the worst format of online communication. Slack, MS Teams, etc. have been around for a while. Use them and the features available to you to collaborate. Additionally, use document editing software like MS Word or Google Docs to edit the same document within a cloud account simultaneously instead of sending files to each other. This tech has existed for sooooo long that it should be considered a bit of an embarrassment if a manager in 2024 doesn't know about it yet

> 3. Work socialization must become intentional, and opportunities for advancement should be based off of merit and output instead of personal relationships

But it seems pretty clear that companies which mandate RTO are simply not equipped, technologically or intellectually, to run such an organization. It's not that remote work is inherently less productive, it's that managers are unable or unwilling to adapt their processes and communication to make it work.

Final note: it seems like another big problem with managers is they find they have little work to do if they are not monitoring people all the time and dragging them into unnecessary meetings. I think they feel threatened by the fact that their jobs are being automated away by software

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[1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2024/01/10/hybrid-wo...

Re:CEOs Are Using Return to Office Mandates to Mask Poor Man... by alberth on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @12:19PM (#39192824)
> 2. Stop using email. It's the worst format of online communication. Slack, MS Teams, etc.

The difficulty with this, is that work can spiral quickly into just spending the whole day responding to chat (slack/teams/etc) and no one ever gets any actual work done.

Re:CEOs Are Using Return to Office Mandates to Mask Poor Man... by ExpendableGuy on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @12:50PM (#39193241)
Thank you. I will fight this new trend of 100% Slack/Teams/Etc. as long as I possibly can.

Email provides a barrier between you and the work -- email isn't a real time form of communication. Chats, meanwhile, imply immediate response. Hell, these apps even show when you're active -- I've gotten passive-aggressive messages like, "I know that you have DND on, but can you confirm you're seeing these messages?" chats outside of working hours.

I get why Slack/Teams/Etc. is a great supplement to email, especially when it's a smaller internal team collaborating. But ditching email is a terrible idea.

Re:CEOs Are Using Return to Office Mandates to Mask Poor Man... by sanderjd on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @01:00PM (#39193369)
This is just culture / familiarity. Absolutely nothing about chat implies immediacy by necessity. But I agree that expectations are often set badly, and that's an important cultural problem to solve.
Re:CEOs Are Using Return to Office Mandates to Mask Poor Man... by alberth on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @01:19PM (#39193625)
Glad to hear I'm not alone.

Question: do you think this would still be a problem if only 1:1 chat was allowed (no group chat existed).

I've often wondered if the real problem is group chat / channels, and not per se the 1:1 type of chat messages.

Re:CEOs Are Using Return to Office Mandates to Mask Poor Man... by shortrounddev2 on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @01:03PM (#39193421)
My problem with email is the amount of spam makes it unusable, and I don't just mean unsolicited advertisements. I get spam from work in the form of notifications and unnecessary CC's, so I'm accustomed to ignoring all emails.

I think it may also be generational: at my previous job, I get chewed out by my manager for not responding to some question another coworker had sent me. I was confused because I don't remember getting any questions from them, and I was told that he had emailed it to me. He's in his 40s and I was 26. I told him I get so many useless emails I never check work email. And the best way to reach me is via slack. Still, some on the team continued to use email

Re:CEOs Are Using Return to Office Mandates to Mask Poor Man... by danaris on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @04:09PM (#39195872)
Sounds like you need to learn to manage your email inbox.

I have dozens of filters set up to direct emails to particular folders before I ever see them. This is precisely the way to deal with automated notifications. They're always coming from the same source; in some cases, they're not going to your email directly, but to a group address that you can easily filter on.

If you're getting unnecessary CCs from particular people commonly, you can set up a filter to automatically route that category (from:thisuser@company, cc:me) to a folder of "check this once a day (or whatever timetable) to see if anything real got through".

The answer to "I have trouble with email," in an organization where email is a normal mode of communication, is not "so the whole rest of my team needs to change their workflow to deal with me." It's "so I need to pick up some skills and make checking my email part of my daily workflow."

Re:CEOs Are Using Return to Office Mandates to Mask Poor Man... by shortrounddev2 on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @11:17PM (#39199855)
The rest of the team didn't use emails, only the older team members did. Honestly, none of the companies I worked for used email for communication, I think it's abnormal to be the one using it on the team.

Slack doesn't require as much configuration as you described. I don't get the point of email when we have slack

Re:CEOs Are Using Return to Office Mandates to Mask Poor Man... by sanderjd on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @12:57PM (#39193332)
Yeah, in my experience, chat is way more useful for collaborating than email. But we also haven't built up as much tolerance to its distractions. I think this is in part the notification / filtering / snoozing tooling is still maturing, and in part it's just familiarity.
Re:CEOs Are Using Return to Office Mandates to Mask Poor Man... by PH95VuimJjqBqy on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @01:18PM (#39193608)
I would also argue that email is superior in that it's searchable and captures context.

by all means, use teams/slack/etc for discussions, but understand that they don't replace email, they enhance it.

Re:CEOs Are Using Return to Office Mandates to Mask Poor Man... by crowcroft on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @04:52PM (#39196384)
In large organizations I always see the same bad outcomes.

1. Lots of random DMs/Group DMs. Everything is messy, and gets lost easily. The 'closed' nature of DMs and small groups then often builds up cliques and creates office politics.

2. Move everything into open channels -> descend into pure chaos with 1,000s of channels that no one can keep up with.

Re:CEOs Are Using Return to Office Mandates to Mask Poor Man... by no_wizard on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @03:03PM (#39194949)
Granted, the person who wrote in to the Washington Post is well meaning and all and I know her write in was edited down for brevity, but it seems like this lady is bringing on alot of the problems herself and not seeing that.

Also, is there an underlying problem with retention, re this comment:

>Developing a rapport with “Bob” could help me anticipate when the lack of promotion opportunity is about to make him jump so we can line up potential replacements.

In the vacuum that is reading the article, this reads like there are problems at the organization with people getting promotions and the person writing in is willing to let them leave and replace them than work out how to keep them.

Something about the write in doesn't sit well with me more generally, but I can't put my finger on it.

Re:CEOs Are Using Return to Office Mandates to Mask Poor Man... by sokoloff on Wednesday January 31, 2024 @05:13AM (#39202035)
There are limits to promotion at any company. Probably no limits from fresh-college-grad to the next level of software engineer (SWE-2 or equivalent). That becomes less true at higher levels. If Bob is a Vice President of Tech, reporting to the CTO, Bob may have no realistic prospect to be promoted to any position other than CTO and if the CTO is successful and not leaving, then Bob has a lack of promotion opportunity. If the CTO keeps working out, most companies would be rationally willing to let Bob leave and replace him if that's Bob's choice (and therefore want to know when he's contemplating that seriously).
Re:CEOs Are Using Return to Office Mandates to Mask Poor Man... by shortrounddev2 on Wednesday January 31, 2024 @10:28AM (#39204929)
Yes but the employee has no incentive to return to the office so that they can be more easily replaced. Return to office is one-sided: middle management think they will gain something (they won't), but the employee gains nothing and loses a lot.
Re:CEOs Are Using Return to Office Mandates to Mask Poor Man... by sanderjd on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @12:58PM (#39193348)
I these, I think (1) and (2) are "you're doing it wrong", but (3) is a real and important issue that remains unsolved.
Re:CEOs Are Using Return to Office Mandates to Mask Poor Man... by throwaway2990 on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @12:53PM (#39193279)
> 1

daily checkin, in person can happen in a minute. It’s helpful. Teams succeed together, not at the direction of 1 person coordinating. Removing them is just dumb.

> 2

lol no. That’s a dumb suggestion. It makes people less productive. Trying to replace a 30 second conversation with slack/teams etc is really just dumb.

> 3

Teams that socialise work better together. Period. You remove any socialising factor and you end up with silos, lost knowledge, depression. Etc.