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Re:Linux for Playstation 2 by Jasper_ on Monday January 29, 2024 @11:09AM (#39177932)
If you didn't know, this was primarily a tax dodge for the EU. Since it ran Linux, they felt they could classify the PlayStation 2 as a general-purpose computer, which receives a lower tariff rate than game consoles. PlayStation 3 had OtherOS for the same purpose, until the EU rejected the claim and reclassified it as a game console, and then Sony pulled support for OtherOS (it also being primarily a vehicle for piracy certainly didn't help).
Re:Linux for Playstation 2 by phire on Monday January 29, 2024 @11:47AM (#39178523)
> (it also being primarily a vehicle for piracy certainly didn't help).

The piracy hacks never used OtherOS. The first piracy hack (the PSJailbreak dongle exploit) simply exploited the GameOS usb stack and wasn't released until after OtherOS had already been removed in a firmware update.

The only hack that ever targeted OtherOS was a complex memory glitching attack that was pretty hard to pull off. As far as I'm aware, that hack was only ever used by a few people for dumping memory, and those dumps were reverse engineered to find other exploits.

If anything, OtherOS might have slowed PS3 modding efforts down, as modders were wasted years banging their heads against the reasonably secure hypervisor. Turns out, GameOS had minimal security, and once you gained kernel access, you could boot backups without needing to touch the hypervisor.

Re:Linux for Playstation 2 by rgovostes on Monday January 29, 2024 @01:11PM (#39179860)
Thanks for your work reverse engineering PSJailbreak, by the way. (https://www.psdevwiki.com/ps3/PSJailbreak_Exploit_Payload_Re...)
Re:Linux for Playstation 2 by phire on Monday January 29, 2024 @10:22PM (#39186050)
I also worked on PSGroove.

Though that was very much a team effort, I knew nothing about USB before working on that. From memory, my contribution was mostly tweaking the code until it worked, I think my PS3 was the first to be exploited by PSGroove.

Though, I wasn't happy at merely copying the sequence of packets USB that lead to an exploit, so I spent some time trying to get a better understanding of how the exploit worked. That document is the result of my efforts.

Re:Linux for Playstation 2 by teaearlgraycold on Monday January 29, 2024 @01:19PM (#39180002)
I recall there was something involving Other OS and soldering a wire into the motherboard.
Re:Linux for Playstation 2 by xcrunner529 on Monday January 29, 2024 @01:26PM (#39180149)
It was one of the first ways I could rip a bluray, though
Re:Linux for Playstation 2 by phire on Monday January 29, 2024 @10:36PM (#39186123)
Yes, that was the memory glitching attack.

But it was a pretty hard exploit to pull off, the required pulse was pretty short and required getting lucky. Nobody ever developed it into something particularly useful for end users, and it didn't directly enable piracy.

While I suspect the unknown person who developed the PSJailbreak exploit did use that attack as a stepping stone towards hacking GameOS, it was not a requirement. And it also could have been done from GameOS once you had kernel level code executing there.

Re:Linux for Playstation 2 by ppseafield on Monday January 29, 2024 @11:45AM (#39178498)
For the PlayStation 3, another thing driving Linux's removal was that organizations were buying PS3s to use in data centers. But Sony sold them at a loss (IIRC over $100/unit loss, even being sold at $600 twenty years ago) and intended to make it up on revenue from games sold. They also didn't have nearly enough at launch because they were using a brand new processor (designed with help from IBM) and a brand new Blu-Ray disc format. That slowed down their initial production, and it had to launch in time to compete with the Xbox 360 (Pre-Christmas 2005), which also had a HD-DVD attachment.

Notably, the PS3 at launch was actually cheaper than some dedicated Blu-ray players, so some home theater enthusiasts bought them (few to no games), eating into Sony's revenue even more. It took several years for the PS3 to be profitable, but it won the format war.

Re:Linux for Playstation 2 by chasil on Monday January 29, 2024 @12:23PM (#39179077)
They should have sold a datacenter version, without the optical disc, with a copy of AIX and/or BSD, with an OS license of $200 (or at least under $1,000).

It doesn't look like a workstation was ever produced, just blades and embedded.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cell_(processor)

Re:Linux for Playstation 2 by ppseafield on Monday January 29, 2024 @12:49PM (#39179466)
A hypothetical Datacenter version might have skipped the optical drive, perhaps cutting down on their losses. At launch I doubt they would have had enough spare processors to build them without cutting into their PS3 production capacity.

Additionally many game studios reported difficulty in writing for the PS3's processor compared to the Xbox, which had gone with a processor pretty similar to most PCs at the time. So by the time they had ramped up the capacity to make enough to meet PS3 demand, there were several years of worse/less performant PS3 versions of games developed for multiple platforms, making Sony's console look worse. It would have been a tough sell internally for the PS4 to use a custom processor architecture again, so they opted not to. This must have soured Sony's opinion of the Cell processor overall.

Re:Linux for Playstation 2 by hawflakes on Monday January 29, 2024 @02:41PM (#39181371)
Cell used the PowerPC isa as did the Xbox 360. Both were designed in the same IBM facility but separated by a floor. IIRC the Xbox team indirectly learned from the Cell team's mistakes at the process/microarch level.

Cell was definitely more weird to code against and Sony put max theoretical perf above Xbox's approach to be more general purpose chip architecture. So strictly speaking it wasn't like most PCs at the time in the x86 sense but in the three mostly same cores for Xbox vs custom Cell and special ways to squeeze out performance.

Re:Linux for Playstation 2 by monocasa on Monday January 29, 2024 @03:16PM (#39181877)
Sort of. The xenon cores are pretty damn close to cell PPE cores, just with VMX-128 strapped to them. They even share some taped out blocks, and have almost all of the same microarchitectural issues like the load hit store penalty.
Re:Linux for Playstation 2 by ppseafield on Monday January 29, 2024 @03:23PM (#39181960)
Thanks for the clarification. I must have conflated "more general purpose" -> "more like PC".
Re:Linux for Playstation 2 by sillywalk on Monday January 29, 2024 @06:24PM (#39184172)
There's a book about the development of both of them, The Race for a New Game Machine: Creating the Chips Inside the XBox 360 and the Playstation 3 by David Shippy & Mickie Phipps. [0]

It has some details on the awkward position the IBM developers were put in.

Rodrigo Copetti's excellent articles on the PS3[1] and Xbox 360 [2]

and Ars' Hannibal's article on the Xenon Chip. [3]

[0] https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/6056634

[1] https://www.copetti.org/writings/consoles/playstation-3/

[2] https://www.copetti.org/writings/consoles/xbox-360/

[3] https://arstechnica.com/features/2005/06/xbox360-2/

Re:Linux for Playstation 2 by chasil on Monday January 29, 2024 @01:29PM (#39180210)
Sony should have realized that the Cell/Power was needed in great quantity, and insisted upon a second supplier. Motorola started making the PowerPC 601 in 1992, so a secondary foundry was absolutely available.

From the wiki: "The introductory design is fabricated using a 90 nm SOI process, with initial volume production slated for IBM's facility in East Fishkill, New York."

AMD did this for Intel up to the 286. Sony should have insisted upon a tidal wave of wafers, if needed.

Re:Linux for Playstation 2 by dfox on Monday January 29, 2024 @02:30PM (#39181209)
IBM sold that as BladeCenter QS series. Reportendly there even was an prototype version that had essentially same hardware as PS3 including the optical drive (production ones are dual-CPU without GPU and optical drive).
Re:Linux for Playstation 2 by monocasa on Monday January 29, 2024 @03:14PM (#39181845)
FWIW, early designs for the PS3 also were missing the GPU in lieu of another Cell chip. The end of Dennard scaling meant that they didn't hit the clock speed they originally intended (close to 5Ghz). It was originally supposed to do rasterization in software on that second cell, but relatively in the last minute they needed to strap a dedicated GPU to it. That's why Cell reads out of VRAM are incredibly slow, around 16MB/s.
Re:Linux for Playstation 2 by King1st on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @11:43AM (#39192240)
While true, Its important to note that the second Cell wasn't gonna be the same type as the main CPU cell. The cell they intended to use as the GPU would have only 4SPEs(vs 7 in the main Cell)along with various rasterization components. Would have been cool. Settling on the Cell was compromise after compromise.
Re:Linux for Playstation 2 by nlunbeck on Monday January 29, 2024 @04:23PM (#39182846)
Iirc the PS2 also got a huge boost by being a cheap alternative to designated DVD players, but it eventually obviously paid off. I wonder how that factored into their PS3 strategy
Re:Linux for Playstation 2 by ppseafield on Monday January 29, 2024 @04:41PM (#39183084)
Indeed, although Sony hadn't created the DVD format (Phillips), having it did boost sales of the PS2. With the PS3 Sony was pushing its own format in direct competition to HD-DVD (also Phillips), and I'm sure losing Beta max market to VHS was still in their minds. So they decided to sell PS3 consoles at a much greater loss. It did pay off as well, but the first few years cost Sony a lot.
Re:Linux for Playstation 2 by epx on Monday January 29, 2024 @04:35PM (#39183003)
I purchased my XBox One for the same reason (cost-effective Blu-Ray player with the possibility of playing games from time to time).
Re:Linux for Playstation 2 by gumby on Monday January 29, 2024 @11:36AM (#39178340)
I can tell you that support for this went all the way up to Ken Kutaragi. I discussed it with him. He was also responsible for the Ethernet port. He had real vision for the platform.

It was more than a tax dodge.

Re:Linux for Playstation 2 by lupire on Monday January 29, 2024 @10:38PM (#39186135)
If the CEO supported it, why didn't it happen?

CEOs like tax dodges and plausible deniability.

Re:Linux for Playstation 2 by gumby on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @03:08AM (#39187534)
What do you mean? Sony did release Linux for the PS2
Re:Linux for Playstation 2 by swatson741 on Monday January 29, 2024 @12:48PM (#39179455)
This isn't quite correct as I understand the situation. It wasn't classified as a computer in Europe because it could run Linux but, because the bundled demo disc included Yabasic (a basic interpreter) in the European regions.[0]

[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnXpzczPc38

Re:Linux for Playstation 2 by chasil on Monday January 29, 2024 @11:59AM (#39178705)
I wonder how this performed compared to a DECStation 5000/240 running Ultrix.

That was my workstation for a student job. It had a MIPS R3000.

DEC probably would have lasted longer if they had bought MIPS instead of sinking all the effort into Alpha (and PRISM before it).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DECstation

Re:Linux for Playstation 2 by pengaru on Monday January 29, 2024 @01:13PM (#39179904)
The linux kit shipped in 2002, the ps2 shipped in 2000.

It came with yabasic on a demo disk, that's what qualified it as a computer for the eu tax break.

ps2linux was chronologically irrelevant to your claim AIUI...

Re:Linux for Playstation 2 by Wingman4l7 on Monday January 29, 2024 @03:23PM (#39181961)
Then Sony got sued in a class-action for removing support for OtherOS!
Re:Linux for Playstation 2 by pjmlp on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @02:47AM (#39187406)
That was in the Playstation 3, this was for Playstation 2.
Re:Linux for Playstation 2 by lupire on Monday January 29, 2024 @10:37PM (#39186129)
I wish I could decide to not pay my taxes, and give a fraudulent excuse, and not go to jail.
Re:Linux for Playstation 2 by pjmlp on Tuesday January 30, 2024 @02:45AM (#39187396)
Completly false, that was shipping Yabasic CD with the Playstation that turned it into a 8 bit like home computer.

PS2Linux was the next iteration of Net Yaroze from Playstation 1.