News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:TinySA – small spectrum analyzer and signal generator by cadr on Friday January 26, 2024 @10:49AM (#39144004)
It surprises me that military drones aren't using spread spectrum to make this harder.
Re:TinySA – small spectrum analyzer and signal generator by nurettin on Friday January 26, 2024 @11:04AM (#39144186)
Is that a real thing, or a star trek reference?
Re:TinySA – small spectrum analyzer and signal generator by p_j_w on Friday January 26, 2024 @12:51PM (#39145458)
Spread Spectrum is very real, it was used in 802.11b.
Re:TinySA – small spectrum analyzer and signal generator by wkat4242 on Friday January 26, 2024 @10:07PM (#39152057)
Yes and Bluetooth.

In those cases it's not used to make detection harder though but to be more resilient against interference.

Re:TinySA – small spectrum analyzer and signal generator by cshimmin on Friday January 26, 2024 @11:09AM (#39144241)
Definitely a real thing. Also, during WWII actress Hedy Lamarr developed a system for spread spectrum torpedo guidance to prevent jamming, but the general idea predates that.
Re:TinySA – small spectrum analyzer and signal generator by cadr on Friday January 26, 2024 @11:06AM (#39144214)
A real thing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spread_spectrum

Fun fact, the famous actress Hedy Lamarr actually was instrumental in inventing it!

Re:TinySA – small spectrum analyzer and signal generator by avisser on Friday January 26, 2024 @02:04PM (#39146597)
You can tell GP is under 40 or they'd probably remember cordless phones "Now with 900mhz spread-spectrum technology"
Re:TinySA – small spectrum analyzer and signal generator by stoneman24 on Friday January 26, 2024 @12:58PM (#39145569)
Yes, it’s a thing. A long time ago, my work involved a frequency hopping, spread spectrum radio link. Can’t say much about it but I’m sure that the technology has improved since then.
Re:TinySA – small spectrum analyzer and signal generator by nonrandomstring on Friday January 26, 2024 @03:31PM (#39147855)
Hopefully its not pedantic or unwelcome of me to make the distinction between spread-spectrum and frequency hopping.

With frequency hopping only one frequency is used at once, and they're selected according to a sequence that matches a shared PRNG. As I understand it, that's what Bluetooth and some Wifi links do. They switch between discrete bands very fast.

Spread spectrum is a little different. During modulation, as with FM a series of side bands spread out. Normally we would limit these as they're considered "interference". But with the right modulator you can spread (and indeed encrypt at the RF link level) information into some bands but not others. Although all sidebands are present, to an observer who can't tell which ones carry the data at any moment, it makes no sense to even try demodulating the signal.

Neither solutions are much use if you need to communicate back because triangulation alone is enough to find you.

Curious if this tallys with your understanding, its over a decade since I had anything to so with this sort of thing. The best summary I recall was in Ross Anderson's "Security Engineering" book (first ed.)

Re:TinySA – small spectrum analyzer and signal generator by NovemberWhiskey on Friday January 26, 2024 @04:19PM (#39148562)
>Hopefully its not pedantic or unwelcome of me to make the distinction between spread-spectrum and frequency hopping

Spread spectrum refers to any technique where a narrowband signal is deliberately spread to occupy a larger bandwidth.

Frequency-hopping is an example of a spread spectrum technique; they're not different things. Direct-sequence spread spectrum (which is what I think you're describing) is also a spread spectrum technique.

There are also other techniques; the most popular one is probably the chirp spread spectrum as used in LoRA.

Re:TinySA – small spectrum analyzer and signal generator by nonrandomstring on Friday January 26, 2024 @04:33PM (#39148773)
Thanks for the clarification NW
Re:TinySA – small spectrum analyzer and signal generator by stoneman24 on Friday January 26, 2024 @04:07PM (#39148386)
No, it’s fine by me. I believe that it was thought that the combination of frequency hopping and spread spectrum would make it difficult to monitor and jam ( other than very wide band jamming). My application was rapidly moving so triangulation would be difficult.

If I understand the capabilities of modern Software Defined Radio systems, then they can monitor many different frequencies at the same time which might defeat those old systems. It’s been a long time since I read up on the current ideas and capabilities.

Re:TinySA – small spectrum analyzer and signal generator by nonrandomstring on Friday January 26, 2024 @04:35PM (#39148799)
> If I understand the capabilities of modern Software Defined Radio systems, then they can monitor many different frequencies at the same time

Haven't been keeping up with it as much as I should, but that's very interesting.

Re:TinySA – small spectrum analyzer and signal generator by NotSammyHagar on Friday January 26, 2024 @01:42PM (#39146274)
Isn't good old cdma a spreadspectrum technique, used for cell phones back in the day from quallcomm?
Re:TinySA – small spectrum analyzer and signal generator by MegaDeKay on Friday January 26, 2024 @03:27PM (#39147796)
Yes, one of the four basic types. CDMA is the Direct Sequence Spread Spectrum variant.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spread_spectrum

Re:TinySA – small spectrum analyzer and signal generator by thsksbd on Friday January 26, 2024 @06:10PM (#39150115)
A lot of the drones are off the shelf drones. This war is revolutionary from a tech POV, a lot of the solutions are cobbled together -> see "cope cages"
Re:TinySA – small spectrum analyzer and signal generator by wkat4242 on Friday January 26, 2024 @10:07PM (#39152051)
Yeah or satellite uplinks that only transmit straight up, much harder to detect and to jam.