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Re:Apple announces changes to iOS, Safari, and the App Store... by gamblor956 on Thursday January 25, 2024 @04:18PM (#39135444)
But look at Windows and Android… you end up paying somehow in the end anyway.

Microsoft updates Windows OS for longer than Apple updates MacOS or iOS, despite charging a one-time fee that most end-users don't pay themselves.

And is backwards compatible.

And works with 99.999999% of the computer hardware ever made.

It seems like with Apple, you're just paying for a lot of nothing.

Re:Apple announces changes to iOS, Safari, and the App Store... by autoexec on Thursday January 25, 2024 @06:31PM (#39136932)
> It seems like with Apple, you're just paying for a lot of nothing.

These days Microsoft screws their users hard in terms of stealing every scrap of personal data they can from people's devices and shoving ads and unwanted software down their throats. An Apple computer might be highly overpriced, under-powered, and restrictive, but Apple isn't the privacy nightmare that Microsoft is and while Macs aren't perfect when it comes to privacy protections I can't fault people for seeing value in their privacy and being willing to pay for it.

That said, most apple users are overpaying for a status symbol and/or an identity rather than strictly for the privacy benefits and for tech savvy users with privacy concerns a PC with linux is the way to go since it's even better at protecting their data and doesn't come with Apple's restrictions on what you can/can't do with your own computer.

Re:Apple announces changes to iOS, Safari, and the App Store... by Nevermark on Thursday January 25, 2024 @09:45PM (#39138375)
> most apple users are overpaying for a status symbol and/or an identity

I have never understood this viewpoint. The world isn't rich enough, or Apple devices exclusive enough, for identity to weight so heavily in Apple's favor.

I think convenience silently overshadows cost for many daily use products. People with modest incomes pay enormous annual sums for convenient daily coffee.

For many, relative reliability and lack of cruft make Apple products more convenient. For others, the inconvenience of Apple's "garden walls" drive them away.

Re:Apple announces changes to iOS, Safari, and the App Store... by autoexec on Friday January 26, 2024 @08:05AM (#39142183)
> I have never understood this viewpoint. The world isn't rich enough, or Apple devices exclusive enough, for identity to weight so heavily in Apple's favor.

Apple has been a status symbol for ages but the iphone made it undeniable. If you've been unaware of that just check out articles such as these:

"New research shows that owning an iPhone is the most common sign of wealth" (https://9to5mac.com/2018/07/08/iphone-wealth-research/)

"Why the iPhone Is the Perfect Status Symbol" (https://www.huffpost.com/entry/status-insanity-why-the-i_b_5...)

"The ‘iPhone Effect’: Are iPhone Users More Attractive Than Androiders?" (https://www.forbes.com/sites/traversmark/2023/12/30/the-ipho...)

As for identity, you may have never met an "apple" person, but it's absolutely an identity for many. It's a subculture (https://www.wired.com/2002/12/mac-loyalists-dont-tread-on-us...). People have called apple users "cult-like" and their devotion to the Apple brand a religion (https://www.jstor.org/stable/3712458). I have met people who were convinced that they couldn't be a "real" artist without owning Apple products (in one case the person was talking about ipods specifically, not computers or cell phones). The influence of marketing on Apple users can be extremely powerful.

As for expense, even in the US the majority of the population (60%) lives paycheck to paycheck and their standard of living is in decline. The high price of the iphone drove up the cost of other brands so the price gap is smaller at the highest end, but most households can't easily afford to get everyone a $1,000+ phone and android devices offer a wide range of prices and features for families who can't afford the top of the line. Even those that can will probably still get more for their money with a flagship android device. Apple users also have to pay much more for software (https://9to5mac.com/2023/09/06/iphone-users-spend-apps/) and that's not even counting the 30% extra apple charges for their cut of in-app purchases that's been talked about so much lately. Iphone users spend and have more money in general for a reason (https://www.marketingdive.com/news/survey-iphone-owners-spen...) and convenience isn't it.

That said, I agree that the perception of Apple being easier to use does drive sales and for people already used to Apple's weirdness there would certainly be a learning curve in switching away from the platform which encourages people to stay.

Re:Apple announces changes to iOS, Safari, and the App Store... by Nevermark on Friday January 26, 2024 @01:14PM (#39145838)
You are ascribing broad motives and discounting alternatives.

I am sure their was some iPhone status effects, especially in iPhone's early days. But status effects follow other effects and die quickly if a product doesn't deliver.

--

I get fans.

I also get the anti-fan simplification syndrome of people who don't understand why Apple products have often appealed to others. Especially when those others are passionate at all.

Googling up articles that obscess of finding non-practical reasons for Apple enthusiasm isn't a good argument.

Apple has typically (for decades, with relatively few fails) had a cleaner level of design and polish vs. Microsoft and other alternatives.

That can be very hard to give up for those that appreciate it.

(Similarly for other consistently distinctively constructed product lines, emphasizing some other area of benefit, of course.)

--

Replies to every one of your links:

> "New research shows that owning an iPhone is the most common sign of wealth"

The article talks about a statistical link with wealth. Not psychology. I don't find it surprising that the wealthy are less price conscious.

> "Why the iPhone Is the Perfect Status Symbol"

The Huffington piece is a complete puff peice. ("A friend got an iPhone because she could not call Uber cabs on her Blackberry. [...] If there is any prospect of drinks on the horizon, she leaves her iPhone safely at home" [..] "There's irony somewhere in this but until Apple comes up with a product called iRony, and livestreams its launch we won't get it.")

Re the "iPhone Effect":

> Apple has always positioned themselves as an aspirational brand. The emphasis on unmatched quality levels, a clean user experience and a distinct and consistent design is at the core of what makes it the most valuable company in the world. [Emphasis mine.]

That is a lot of practical daily non-status value for less price conscious people to buy.

> As for identity, you may have never met an "apple" person, but it's absolutely an identity for many.

I get there are fans. But Apple fans for the most part have had good practical reasons. One big reason wasnt Apple so much as the cruft and shovelware (and now in OS advertising) of other vendors that for some of us gets achingly frustrating. (I have generally had Macs and Windows machines for decades. Pro's and con's for each, but good lord, Windows is still a bag of inconsistency, disorganized plethora's of niggling settings, and trashy interface choices in comparison. Even though I appreciate many reasons others preferred Windows.)

> It's a subculture

Again, Apple products are distinctive in a way that impacts people at a practical level. And that article is from 2002.

> People have called apple users "cult-like" [...]

People often have trouble understanding other people's choices. Article from 2001!

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TLDR; Just because something can confer status, doesn't make status the reason people buy it. Especially 16 years after a high utility daily use product has been introduced and alternatives abound.

Takeaway: Let other's explain their own motives. Don't project narratives as if they are facts - regardless of how much they are repeated or satisfy you.

One serious research paper showing 60% of 10,000 iPhone owners across diverse demographics listing "status" as in their top 2 purchasing factors would realistically make the argument you are trying to make. Not the articles you listed.

The kinds of articles you thought worth quoting say more about you than Apple customers.

--

Devil's advocate: Apple has not always delivered, other vendors have other benefits, and Apple's legacy of user interface design is seriously marred by "flat design" in my experience. (Design should make usage simpler, not reduce pixels, color, texture, visibility of options or status, or other affordances. Don't get me started on Ives need to eliminate ports people actually used, or flatten keyboards into unreliability.)

Re:Apple announces changes to iOS, Safari, and the App Store... by riwsky on Thursday January 25, 2024 @10:29PM (#39138593)
“Apple is the worst computer company, except for all the others.”
Re:Apple announces changes to iOS, Safari, and the App Store... by pharmakom on Thursday January 25, 2024 @04:44PM (#39135810)
I once would have agreed with you, but the advertisements and pushiness in Windows are simply unacceptable at this point.
Re:Apple announces changes to iOS, Safari, and the App Store... by tsimionescu on Thursday January 25, 2024 @05:11PM (#39136097)
The EU is fixing that as well - we'll soon see the privacy version of Win 11 launched in the EU as well.
Re:Apple announces changes to iOS, Safari, and the App Store... by filoleg on Thursday January 25, 2024 @06:07PM (#39136713)
That's cool and all, but I either can wait for that to happen or not happen (which is not a certainty), or I can just use macOS (or a flavor of Linux).

Sure, the EU will fix things like they've managed to do in the past with other internet-related stuff (e.g., cookie notices). And I will definitely re-evaluate this take once things change in terms of ads for Windows. But until that happens, I don't see "the EU will fix that" as a valid point in favor of Windows.

Re:Apple announces changes to iOS, Safari, and the App Store... by Kipters on Friday January 26, 2024 @03:55AM (#39140279)
The ability to disable the "news" panel is already in preview, it will be released by march

https://www.windowscentral.com/software-apps/windows-11/wind...

Re:Apple announces changes to iOS, Safari, and the App Store... by pharmakom on Friday January 26, 2024 @04:06AM (#39140349)
This is the problem. Microsoft does not have a strong product function in Windows so no one can push back on this bullshit in the first place.
Re:Apple announces changes to iOS, Safari, and the App Store... by filoleg on Friday January 26, 2024 @02:05PM (#39146617)
That’s nice, what about those OneDrive and Microsoft365 ads they added in an update last year?
Re:Apple announces changes to iOS, Safari, and the App Store... by gamblor956 on Thursday January 25, 2024 @06:29PM (#39136917)
Given that I have not paid for Windows in almost 2 decades, I am okay with a little bit of advertising.

All of my Windows PCs just work. And I can stick pretty much any hardware and they just work.

I can't say the say for any of the Apple devices that my friends own, all of whom have had to have them replaced at some point.

Re:Apple announces changes to iOS, Safari, and the App Store... by octacat on Friday January 26, 2024 @05:43AM (#39141113)
And works with 99.999999% - not true with Win 11.