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Re:American society wasn't always so car-centric. Our future... by FredPret on Sunday January 21, 2024 @02:10PM (#39081771)
Yale Climate Connections - didn't expect a politically neutral post from that. But they make a good argument for higher density, which I agree with. But there are some advantages to a car-centric society:

- higher personal freedom - you can go anywhere, anytime. With transit / walking, you can go some places, some of the time. This is huge and opens up a lot of possibilities for work, vacations, socializing, healthcare.

- bulk stores like Costco is only possible because people have cars. You will have to pry my Costco membership card from my cold, dead hands.

It's a lot cheaper to let people drive in to a central bulk store like this and buy what they want in large quantities than to have a network of tiny, walkable stores and try to predict demand and optimally distribute goods to them with delivery vans.

Re:American society wasn't always so car-centric. Our future... by AnthonyMouse on Sunday January 21, 2024 @02:36PM (#39082094)
> higher personal freedom - you can go anywhere, anytime. With transit / walking, you can go some places, some of the time. This is huge and opens up a lot of possibilities for work, vacations, socializing, healthcare.

It seems like people have gotten stuck in this false dichotomy where the only two possibilities are detached single-family homes on an acre of land or 50-story high rises with hundreds of housing units.

An acre of land is 43560 sq ft. That's enough for a 10,000 sq ft per-story multi-story building and dozens of ground-level parking spaces. You can fill a neighborhood with those, put shops on the ground floor and housing above it, and have a walkable neighborhood where every household has one car instead of two.

> bulk stores like Costco is only possible because people have cars. You will have to pry my Costco membership card from my cold, dead hands.

You could pretty easily replace this with ecommerce for bulk goods. It's actually kind of weird that this isn't more popular because bulk purchases should reduce shipping overhead. Why isn't there a Costco truck that drops off a month's supply of groceries at your front door once a month?

Re:American society wasn't always so car-centric. Our future... by agensaequivocum on Sunday January 21, 2024 @02:55PM (#39082345)
No everyone should own the land they live on. You don't have much freedom when your property ends at the front door.
Re:American society wasn't always so car-centric. Our future... by AnthonyMouse on Sunday January 21, 2024 @03:06PM (#39082457)
If you divide the number of square feet in Brooklyn by the population, the average person gets ~1049 sq ft of land, not accounting for roads or parking or sidewalks or anything like that. How much of yours would you like to allocate to grass?
Re:American society wasn't always so car-centric. Our future... by rickydroll on Monday January 22, 2024 @12:12AM (#39086488)
none.. I have a 2500sqft house on a 10k sqft lot. I am eradicating the grass, rewilding as much as possible, increasing veggie garden with drip/soaker hose irrigation, expanding strawberry/blueberry patch. it is a multi-year project but it is one of those things that make life worth living.
Re:American society wasn't always so car-centric. Our future... by AnthonyMouse on Monday January 22, 2024 @01:17AM (#39086874)
And that's fine as long as you realize that it isn't physically possible for everyone to do that in many cities. It cannot fit into the land area of the city.

And nobody is proposing a law that requires you to knock down your house and build a multi-family unit that fills the lot, but if that's what somebody else wants to do on their property, just let them.

Re:American society wasn't always so car-centric. Our future... by rickydroll on Monday January 22, 2024 @10:51AM (#39090748)
I agree and I paid a premium on my housing so I could have that yard. Technically, I am within the city (about 500 m from the city limits up against a more rural city. I completely understand the need to build more housing in a denser configuration. Where I live is in an old mill city, and they keep trying to revitalize downtown, but it never seems to take. I think they need to, as we geeks say, scrub and reinstall.

It doesn't matter to me if they build housing as long as it doesn't block my view of the sky and it doesn't add to light pollution.

A lot of the older housing is shit-quality tenements. To give one example of the crappy environment, there was a music festival in downtown, I walked from home (about 3 miles) because I didn't want to add to the parking chaos. I had to walk through a rundown section of town and saw a couple of families with their kids in the yard. The yard was all asphalt. Not a hint of green or dirt.

If we are going to build denser housing with social housing, we have to have green places where kids can play. I am a big fan of rewilding with few trees; that should be the kind of place kids have to play. With dirt to dig into, flowers they can smell, have room to plant a basic garden. let no kid be left inside.

we may not be able to give them a 10,000-square-foot yard, but we can make green commons, and part of their education would be understanding their responsibility to themselves and to others in how to take care of a common space.

As for knocking down my house, well, some "should-ers" have told me that I should do just that. Knock down my house (1930s era) building, put in the 4 to 6 apartments that could fit on the lot, and take a loss on the building to make it affordable.

Re:American society wasn't always so car-centric. Our future... by AnthonyMouse on Monday January 22, 2024 @02:39PM (#39094290)
> It doesn't matter to me if they build housing as long as it doesn't block my view of the sky and it doesn't add to light pollution.

I wish the single-family homes would stop adding to the light pollution. It seems like every Tom, Dick and Harry with a garage has a motion sensor connected to a million lumens worth of electric light that gets triggered every time the wind blows or a car drives down the street.

> A lot of the older housing is shit-quality tenements.

One of the main problems with housing policy in the US is that there is a group of people who want home values to go up and another group who want housing to be affordable and it should be fairly obvious why they can't both be satisfied at once. So instead we get rubbish political responses like rent control and The Projects and the creation of slums that nominally give poor people somewhere to live while all but purposely making it awful or otherwise restricted to Those People to make sure that no upstanding citizens would ever live there instead of paying four times what it should cost for proper housing.

We have to overcome that in order to have nice things.

> If we are going to build denser housing with social housing, we have to have green places where kids can play.

Sure, and higher density construction is one of the things that allow it. One and two-story homes make extremely inefficient use of land.

Suppose you have to fit 1000 people into a million sq ft of land and you want them to each have 1000 sq ft of indoor living space. If you build one-story buildings, you are not going to have an inch left for a single tree. If you build four-story buildings, they could each have 2000 sq ft and you'd still have half a million square feet left over from which to carve out a nice park or community garden.

> As for knocking down my house, well, some "should-ers" have told me that I should do just that.

Everybody wants to tell everybody else what to do. We need to reject "everything not mandatory is prohibited" and just let different people make different choices.

Re:American society wasn't always so car-centric. Our future... by agensaequivocum on Monday January 22, 2024 @02:25PM (#39094117)
Giant cities are terrible. Everyone should strive to leave. I do agree that we remove building codes and ordinances that prohibit one from doing what he wants on his own property.
Re:American society wasn't always so car-centric. Our future... by agensaequivocum on Monday January 22, 2024 @02:15PM (#39093985)
I wouldn't live anywhere near New York City.
Re:American society wasn't always so car-centric. Our future... by pasttense01 on Sunday January 21, 2024 @08:34PM (#39085017)
The majority of Americans prefer to live in a single family house with a nice-sized backyard.
Re:American society wasn't always so car-centric. Our future... by AnthonyMouse on Sunday January 21, 2024 @09:50PM (#39085570)
Then there's no need to prohibit people from building shops with housing above it because the market will decide, right?
Re:American society wasn't always so car-centric. Our future... by dublinben on Sunday January 21, 2024 @02:30PM (#39082026)
Car-centric design reduces freedom, because it requires an expensive car in order to go anywhere. Nothing says freedom like a $900/month car payment in order to get to work and buy groceries![0]

Bulk stores like Costco are only necessary because people live in such sprawling communities. In places where you live a short walk from a grocery store, you can practice just-in-time logistics, and buy whatever you need as soon as you need it.

It's a lot cheaper, both in economic and environmental terms, to build cities where people don't need to drive for their daily needs.

[0] https://newsroom.aaa.com/2022/08/annual-cost-of-new-car-owne...

Re:American society wasn't always so car-centric. Our future... by NovemberWhiskey on Sunday January 21, 2024 @02:33PM (#39082063)
>requires an expensive car in order to go anywhere.

... the prevalence of 2000s Nissan Altimas on the road suggests that a cheap car works pretty well for many people.

Re:American society wasn't always so car-centric. Our future... by dublinben on Sunday January 21, 2024 @02:42PM (#39082168)
There's no such thing as a "cheap" car when you compare it to the cost of walking or cycling. You could buy a new pair of shoes and a bike every month for the cost of just insuring and fueling an average car.

Car-centric design is a tax on all of us. It's just less burdensome for some than it is for others.

Re:American society wasn't always so car-centric. Our future... by pandaman on Sunday January 21, 2024 @10:04PM (#39085681)
If your time is worth $0 then walking is cheaper, even at the federal minimum wage it's $1.80-2.40 per mile.
Re:American society wasn't always so car-centric. Our future... by erik_seaberg on Sunday January 21, 2024 @03:03PM (#39082424)
How much food and water do you keep at home? Are you prepared for an emergency? Needing extra food every day sounds risky, as well as not being a good use of time.
Re:American society wasn't always so car-centric. Our future... by TexanFeller on Sunday January 21, 2024 @02:37PM (#39082101)
Rather hyperbolic. No one needs to pay $1000/mo for a basic reliable car, not even including gas and insurance.
Re:American society wasn't always so car-centric. Our future... by giraffe_lady on Sunday January 21, 2024 @03:05PM (#39082441)
Regardless of the price, it limits access to many necessities only to people able to drive. All children are unable to drive, and anyone who doesn't die young will end their life disabled and unable to drive for the last several-to-many years of it. There's no reason to limit and isolate people this way. It's certainly not "freedom."
Re:American society wasn't always so car-centric. Our future... by FredPret on Sunday January 21, 2024 @02:37PM (#39082114)
Weird strawman. 1000/month buys you a nice new car. You can buy a second-hand one outright for 5k.

I've lived in both walk-centric and car-centric modalities. It's a lot cheaper to do a costco trip every two weeks in North America than to walk to Co-op or Waitrose or whatever and buy a single, individually-wrapped-in-plastic apple at a time.

Re:American society wasn't always so car-centric. Our future... by eesmith on Sunday January 21, 2024 @03:08PM (#39082482)
On the topic of strawman, surely the better comparison would be Tesco home-delivery of the bulk of your biweekly shopping. While that costs more than buying it yourself, how much is your time worth?

Also, Waitrose is upmarket, so that's more like a Whole Foods apple than a Costco one.

Re:American society wasn't always so car-centric. Our future... by FredPret on Sunday January 21, 2024 @05:11PM (#39083608)
I save a ton of time buying in bulk. It’s the main reason I do it; I’m just delighted I also save money.

I also get much better quality meat, fruit, and vegetables from Costco than Waitrose. So this is a total no-brainer for me. The only downside for some is you need more upfront money to shop in bulk, even if it works out to be cheaper.

Re:American society wasn't always so car-centric. Our future... by eesmith on Monday January 22, 2024 @04:49AM (#39087877)
You can get the cost savings in a less car-centric world using delivery.

Costco has home grocery delivery too. https://customerservice.costco.com/app/answers/answer_view/a...

It costs more that on the shelf because you are paying for someone to do work for you. Again, how much is your time worth?

Yes, a lot of people love to pick out their own food themselves, and buy in bulk only every couple of weeks, and take it home in their own vehicle. You are one of them, but certainly not everyone is like you. I am not.

The idea of a less car-centric world is to give more options that don't require a car, not to prevent you from using a car.

If the savings in going to Costco is big enough to justify having a car, then one alternative option is to join a car sharing group. Every two weeks, book a vehicle for your Costco run. In effect you're only paying for a day's worth of car ownership rather than 14 days, where most of time the car does nothing.

Re:American society wasn't always so car-centric. Our future... by AlotOfReading on Sunday January 21, 2024 @02:23PM (#39081945)
Stores like Costco and Ikea exist in countries with good public transit. They're just one among many types of store. Transit advocacy isn't about eliminating everything except public transit. It can just be about improving transit so that the infrastructure for vehicles isn't overwhelmed with all the people who don't need to use cars and don't have other options.
Re:American society wasn't always so car-centric. Our future... by FredPret on Sunday January 21, 2024 @02:47PM (#39082228)
It sure does eliminate other forms of transport.

You ever see the bill for a bit of rail, or a subway, or a bus line? These things are horrendously expensive to build, maintain, and run. The money comes from taxes. Now that tax money might be better spent on other things poor and homeless people need, or might be better off circulating in the economy and not taxed at all.

But freezing all that value in the form of public transit isn't going to yield the best payoff for society.

Re:American society wasn't always so car-centric. Our future... by mlsu on Sunday January 21, 2024 @04:13PM (#39083134)
Have you seen the bill for a freeway interchange?

Or the bill for lung cancer due to living next to a busy road?

Or the bill for hearing loss due to noise pollution?

Or the bill for having a kid getting hit and killed by a 3 ton pickup truck?

Or the bill for birds choking on oil after a spill?

...

I can go on.

Re:American society wasn't always so car-centric. Our future... by 303uru on Sunday January 21, 2024 @04:04PM (#39083045)
Freezing it in the hands of Musk, Bezos, Gates, etc... is? You do realize people build all the infrastructure, right? That entire industries are formed? It's quite literally the definition of mobilizing money into the economy.
Re:American society wasn't always so car-centric. Our future... by ansmithz42 on Sunday January 21, 2024 @02:34PM (#39082075)
Very True! It is about choice of transit. The US has NO Choice of Transit. It is either Car or nothing. How very free that is to be limited to 1 choice!
Re:American society wasn't always so car-centric. Our future... by schoen on Sunday January 21, 2024 @02:18PM (#39081877)
I had a friend in the city who was doing pretty well with Zipcar, where one could somewhat spontaneously rent a car in one's urban neighborhood to use for errands or trips. This could be a good solution in dense environments for Costco runs, especially when the nearest Zipcar lot is just a couple of minutes' walk away.

I personally go shopping by bike, but I notice there are some things I can't readily buy that way, like furniture. (I did successfully buy a microwave by bike, but a larger appliance than that would be pretty daunting.)

I have family visiting me right now in the big city from the small town, and it's weird for us to notice how different things are.

Re:American society wasn't always so car-centric. Our future... by agensaequivocum on Sunday January 21, 2024 @03:00PM (#39082397)
Having to walk a couple of minute just to get to the car is not acceptable. I have five kids (with hopefully at least another five in the future) which requires 10+ minutes just to make sure everything is in the car that we need. There's no way I'm going to hall them down the street to get in the car. The convenience and freedom of having a car in my garage is irreplaceable.
Re:American society wasn't always so car-centric. Our future... by eesmith on Sunday January 21, 2024 @03:26PM (#39082687)
The goal is not to get rid of all cars.

The goal is to be less car-centric.

Those 10 kids, once they get older, will want to go to places, meet friends, and participate in activities. If the only option is a car, then you or someone else must be their chauffeur. Quite a few parents do it, but not all enjoy it.

If the place you live were less car-centric, you could give each of the older kids a bus pass and let them go places on their own, or your kids could walk and bike places on routes which are not shared with cars.

Re:American society wasn't always so car-centric. Our future... by true_religion on Sunday January 21, 2024 @06:06PM (#39084002)
That’s true but it seems the suburban ideal is to protect children by not allowing them to leave the community without their parents. It’s basically an artificial village.
Re:American society wasn't always so car-centric. Our future... by eesmith on Monday January 22, 2024 @12:16AM (#39086516)
That's an accidental side-effect due to being car-centric.
Re:American society wasn't always so car-centric. Our future... by agensaequivocum on Monday January 22, 2024 @02:21PM (#39094077)
I grew up in a suburb. I biked around just fine. We have a bus stop just down the street from where I live now. However, I would let my kids carry a gun before I would let them on a bus.
Re:American society wasn't always so car-centric. Our future... by eesmith on Monday January 22, 2024 @04:59PM (#39096086)
That's likely because you live in a car-centric place where buses are generally only used by poor people, causing it to inherit a stigma.

Transit in car-centric areas is generally under-funded, with low frequency service, so really only those who have far more time than money are likely to use it (see previous paragraph). Nor are the routes oriented towards parks, the beach, the local library, or other places kids would go to to meet their friends.

Taking a bus can also be confusing for a beginner. I didn't start using the bus until visiting the UK in my late twenties. I didn't know how to pay, I didn't know how to request a stop, I didn't know what I could ask of the driver, I didn't know the route or what the stop looked like, and more.

If you don't have the experience yourself, and your kid hasn't been with you on the bus to learn from you, then of course you are unlikely to want your kid to use the bus.

On the other hand, go to the UK and you'll see that kids take the regular bus to/from school, along with people doing the work commute or running errands.

There isn't a fleet of student-only school buses, because the mass transit system has enough capacity and frequency. There I am on a double-decker bus on my second day in the UK and to my surprise the bus stops near a school and a gaggle of teens (okay, maybe 15-20) climb aboard.

And the UK is pretty car-centric compared to what I've heard about the Netherlands.

Re:American society wasn't always so car-centric. Our future... by epistasis on Sunday January 21, 2024 @02:17PM (#39081874)
> bulk stores like Costco is only possible because people have cars. You will have to pry my Costco membership card from my cold, dead hands.

Costco users in urban areas would disagree with your assessment that it's only possible with cars. I'm looking at this Costco in Soma right now and watching people walk out with enough bulk goods to carry in their granny carts or bags in hands.

Re:American society wasn't always so car-centric. Our future... by AlotOfReading on Sunday January 21, 2024 @02:29PM (#39082018)
I wish that Costco didn't have cars.

I used to bike past it on my morning commute and it was heart-poundingly dangerous. Drivers will jump in front of you and slam on the brakes so they can get into the parking garage entrance. The taxis aggressively pulling out from the stop just add to the thrill.

Re:American society wasn't always so car-centric. Our future... by 0xdde on Sunday January 21, 2024 @02:21PM (#39081916)
> It's a lot cheaper to let people drive in to a central bulk store like this and buy what they want in large quantities than to have a network of tiny, walkable stores and try to predict demand and optimally distribute goods to them with delivery vans.

Cheaper for who? Car ownership can be a huge financial burden compared to transit.

Re:American society wasn't always so car-centric. Our future... by kredd on Sunday January 21, 2024 @02:40PM (#39082147)
I really don’t understand this post. You can obviously have both? Like it’s very super-duper obvious how you can just live in a city and don’t use your car at all, but drive out to get outside of the city.

I live in Vancouver, I go to Costco which is downtown (15 min walk or 7 min metro ride), drive up to skiing or hiking mountains multiple times a month (weather and etc. depended). I don’t even want to point at even better cities in other countries (most of Japan, Switzerland, parts of France and many more) as that’s cheating. But you really can have your cake and eat it too, it’s very much been done multiple times around the world.

Re:American society wasn't always so car-centric. Our future... by rdedev on Sunday January 21, 2024 @02:18PM (#39081883)
You can have both. At my home in India I can just walk and get all essentials I need (food medicine etc.) If I need to buy a lot of things I take a car and go to the nearest supermarket.

There is an environmental cost to using only cars to get your essential things. We need to start considering them now

Re:American society wasn't always so car-centric. Our future... by rickydroll on Monday January 22, 2024 @12:38AM (#39086654)
Thank you, I was beginning to think I was the only person with the understanding that transportation is multimodal at the person level.

One blind spot that I'm aware of is where you are, need, and point of service don't always align. For example, my medications cost a lot more if I go to the Walgreens a quarter mile away versus the CVS a mile and a half away. My partner has a special needs child and she needs to be able to get the child to a variety of services during the day a few times a month. Driving makes it possible. Public transit would make her unemployable.

Re:American society wasn't always so car-centric. Our future... by CalRobert on Sunday January 21, 2024 @02:27PM (#39081991)
Your freedom to drive generally reduces other people's freedom to walk, bike, and take transit. Among other things it's often illegal to build homes where people want to live so that you can park your car there.
Re:American society wasn't always so car-centric. Our future... by FredPret on Sunday January 21, 2024 @02:40PM (#39082148)
Except those other people also want cars. So we all live in a sprawling, low-cost-of-living city and we are happy.

Of course, some people call this slice of heaven a "nightmarish hellscape of stroads" [0] but thank goodness those people can move somewhere else and leave our cars alone.

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39081965

Re:American society wasn't always so car-centric. Our future... by 303uru on Sunday January 21, 2024 @04:02PM (#39083028)
>higher personal freedom

Strong disagree. Having spent good amounts of time in parts of the world where you can operate for months without getting in a car, it felt far more free. The barrier to entry in the US being owning a car, paying insurance and paying for a place to store it is the opposite of freedom.

Re:American society wasn't always so car-centric. Our future... by eesmith on Sunday January 21, 2024 @02:54PM (#39082330)
There are also advantages to a less car-centric society.

- "In 2022 the average vehicle costs $11,450 per year to own and operate. The breakdown of the figure comes to $4,496 for purchasing the vehicle, $3,120 in gasoline and motor oil expenses, and $3,834 in other vehicle-related costs." - https://www.investopedia.com/articles/pf/08/cost-car-ownersh... . If you are in a two-car family, and a less car-centric environment means you only need one car for those Costco runs and wind surfing afternoons, then you can save thousands of dollars.

- You can go out with friends to a bar and drink, and not worry about having a designated driver.

- There's much less need for “Restricted” or “Hardship” License for repeat DUI offenders.

- Kids have higher personal freedom as they don't depend on a parent to drive

- People who aren't able to drive (due to any of many reasons) have higher personal freedom

- During your commute you can read or do other things which occupy your attention.

- You don't have to worry about finding parking or paying for parking.

- Your taxes go down as you don't need to subsidize so much driving infrastructure

Having mass transit access also opens up possibilities for work you can't as easily get with a car. That's why places already have Park&Ride - parking at the job location is too expensive with only car access.

In a less car-centric society there should be little difference between the health car you get with a car and without. Plus, if your health condition means you can't drive, you'll likely have better healthcare access.