> like the perpetual ethnic-cleansing
Funny you ask that, makes me wonder what happened to the jews of the levantine and arab countries
The absolute bare minimum of a position is "I'm taking the less bad side" but I think both are so awful neither honestly viable to support on a social level (political is different)
Do you always equate occupier and occupied, oppressor and oppressed?
How about Ukraine and Russia, do you apply the same logic? Of course you wouldn't and you don't.
Of course not, why on earth would anyone tolerate a bunch of invaders taking over their land? Zionists are really still making that argument as if it makes a lick of sense. No sane human would react otherwise.
>Funny you ask that, makes me wonder what happened to the jews of the levantine and arab countries
What came first? Exactly, Zionists started ethnic-cleansing Palestinians and IN RESPONSE their neighbors acted in kind, which by the way was exactly what Zionists wanted anyway. They wanted and needed as many jews in occupied Palestine as possible, so it was an emotional response from their neighbors that was a moral and strategic mistake.
The point of reclaiming Zion is to ultimately reclaim Mount Temple to build the Final Temple and usher in the end of days and an eternity of paradise.
One of the strange things with Israel is a lot of people that are pro Israel dont know anything about the nation. Ignorance usually breeds hate and not love. Or maybe being darker skinned is the key.
And the numerous attacks on the Israelis since it was formed, after each of which Israel gained more land?
And the numerous offers made to the Palestinians for a state which they refused?
> I hope you know how the Muslims acquired the lands they live on now, down through the centuries? Hint, it wasn't by asking nicely.
Yes it was common to have wars for land, but it's a completely different story to fleeing from Europe and presenting yourself as victims just to turn around and become the same monster you fled from and ethnically cleanse the native population for your colonial project. There is still testimony[0] from members of jewish terrorist groups like irgun & haganah who stated that the way they treated the natives reminded them of how the nazis treated the jews.
>And the numerous attacks on the Israelis since it was formed, after each of which Israel gained more land?
Well, if you invade and steal people's land they will fight you, it's common sense. What is surprising is that zionists think that they are somehow making a good argument with this. Furthermore, most of those wars you are probably referring to are falsely claimed to be "attacks on israel" while in fact israel was preemptively attacking[1] its neighbors. This is documented and confirmed by declassified israeli sources.
>And the numerous offers made to the Palestinians for a state which they refused?
Yes, if you steal someone's property they usually want 100% of it back not some arbitrary amount determined by the thief. I heard these nonsense arguments so many times and yet I'm still mind blown every time that zionists think that these are somehow smart talking points.
The hasbara ministry of affairs must have suffered under serious budget cuts.
[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bwy-Rf15UIs [1] "The Conflict based on a lie" - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dy56Q1a0Flc
> Yes it was common to have wars for land, but it's a completely different story to fleeing from Europe and presenting yourself as victims just to turn around and become the same monster you fled from and ethnically cleanse the native population for your colonial project.
If it was common to have wars for land, does it justify it? And you do know that a large proportion of Jews in Israel are Mizrahi and Shepardic, right? Also, those Jews fleeing from Europe were certainly victims, so I'm not sure why you are mocking that.
> Yes, if you invade people's land they will fight you, it's common sense.
A UN resolution provided for the state of Israel (and of Palestine, which they rejected), so I'm not sure what invasion you are talking about. Incidentally, this is the same UN whose resolutions Israel is accused of not following. So the Muslim nations are like, we will comply with UN resolutions only when we agree with it, but we expect others to follow them in all cases.
If you have a problem, find diplomatic ways of resolving them, but if you attack someone with genocidal intent, don't be surprised if you are hit with a disproportionate response. You can argue abut whether the justification for the preemptive strike of the 1967 six days war was strong enough, but that doesn't change the fact that Israel's enemies had clear and imminent intent to visit great harm on it.
> Yes, if you steal someone's property they usually want 100% of it back not some arbitrary amount determined by the thief. I heard these nonsense arguments so many times and yet I'm still mind blown every time that zionists think that these are somehow smart talking points.
So, in your opinion, the conflict will/should not be resolved until Israel is obliterated? Good luck. But in that case, it is dishonest to call for a cease-fire, or to accuse Israel if not negotiating in good faith. How do you live with, or negotiate, with an adversary who is only seeking your total destruction?
I see you use the word "Zionists" many times - it seems to be used as a dog whistle. I have no affiliation with Israel or Jews whatsoever; I'm just incensed that reason seems to have gone out the window in the latest incarnation of this conflict.
>A UN resolution provided for the state of Israel (and of Palestine, which they rejected), so I'm not sure what invasion you are talking about. Incidentally, this is the same UN whose resolutions Israel is accused of not following. So the Muslim nations are like, we will comply with UN resolutions only when we agree with it, but we expect others to follow them in all cases.
Any mentally sane human would have rejected that "resolution", which is/was non-binding anyway, since it gave the MAJORITY of Palestinian land to a MINORITY. And you saying "so I'm not sure what invasion you are talking about" is completely laughable and is evidence of you having bias, probably religious bias, and thus you have a motivation to be dishonest, that's why you keep making such arguments in bad faith.
>Incidentally, this is the same UN whose resolutions Israel is accused of not following.
Why are you saying "accused" when Israel has a documented track record of ignoring international law, illegally occupying land and committing war crimes with impunity for decades? You argue in bad faith, that's why.
>If you have a problem, find diplomatic ways of resolving them, but if you attack someone with genocidal intent, don't be surprised if you are hit with a disproportionate response. You can argue abut whether the justification for the preemptive strike of the 1967 six days war was strong enough, but that doesn't change the fact that Israel's enemies had clear and imminent intent to visit great harm on it.
Again, that's a complete lie and I have linked you a detailed documentary[0] which exposes that narrative as a fabrication of the israeli hasbara ministry. Zionists invaded land and started ethnic-cleansing the native population so it makes precisely ZERO SENSE to frame zionists in the dishonest "defensive" light you have painted them, when they were and still are the aggressors and colonizers from day 1. You argue in bad faith because the facts make israel and its history indefensible, that's why the only way zionists can defend their colonial project is to rewrite history and frame it as dishonestly as possible.
>So, in your opinion, the conflict will/should not be resolved until Israel is obliterated? Good luck. But in that case, it is dishonest to call for a cease-fire, or to accuse Israel if not negotiating in good faith. How do you live with, or negotiate, with an adversary who is only seeking your total destruction?
It's truly fascinating how you, as a black man, are so hellbent on defending an apartheid ethno-state with such cold-blooded dishonesty. Any sensible human wants to see an end to apartheid and occupation first. The call for a ceasefire has nothing to do with that, it's just a call of the world because we are seeing what bloodthirsty genocidal lunatics the zionists have become in their intentional targeting of civilians, mostly women and children, that's why we want to prevent the genocide israel is committing as we speak.
>How do you live with, or negotiate, with an adversary who is only seeking your total destruction?
That's Israel you are talking about and this description perfectly describes israel's genocidal behavior, but it's already clear from your rhetoric that you have absolutely zero interest in a honest answer because you are a zionist who has such a warped and biased view of the facts that you will just take any answer and twist it in such a way that your cognitive dissonance is satisfied.
>I see you use the word "Zionists" many times - it seems to be used as a dog whistle.
I've used it precisely 2 times, how is that many times? You guys can't just stick to debating facts without dishonestly accusing others of antisemitism because you know that your arguments are all based on lies and distortions. And the irony on top is that zionists like you openly engage in islamophobic rhetoric while whining about antisemitism, it's so cynical and deceitful.
[0] "The Conflict based on a lie" - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dy56Q1a0Flc
The violent Islamic expansion was not a war between countries. Is Islam a country? It was a rampage for land, pure and simple [1]
> Any mentally sane human would have rejected that "resolution", which is/was non-binding anyway
Hear, hear, now hardly a day passes without another UN resolution against Israel, sponsored by the same elements, who then accuse Israel of not complying with the resolutions. If the resolutions are non-binding, why do they keep accusing Israel of not heeding them? On the other hand, do we get to pick and choose which resolutions we will heed or not?
> Why are you saying "accused" when Israel has a documented track record of ignoring international law
International law should be followed by all, at all times. The Palestinians and their backers have no moral high ground here, not at all.
> Again, that's a complete lie and I have linked you a detailed documentary[0] which exposes that narrative as a fabrication of the israeli hasbara ministry
Was Egypt not massing troops in preparation for an attack on Israel? Or are we living in separate universes.
> It's truly fascinating how you, as a black man, are so hellbent on defending an apartheid ethno-state with such cold-blooded dishonesty.
You are avoiding my question: In your opinion, is the conflict not be resolvable until Israel is obliterated? And, what does the fact that I'm black have to do with anything?
> Any sensible human wants to see an end to apartheid and occupation first. The call for a ceasefire has nothing to do with that,
Oh, so you don't want a proper solution for now. You just you want a ceasefire that gives Hamas a reprieve to continue to build up their capacity to massacre Israeli civilians again.
> That's Israel you are talking about and this description perfectly describes Israel's genocidal behavior
Again, you don't answer my question: How do you live with, or negotiate, with an adversary who is only seeking your total destruction? What exactly does Hamas want again?
> I've used it precisely 2 times, how is that many times? You guys can't just stick to debating facts without dishonestly accusing others of antisemitism because you know that your arguments are all based on lies and distortions.
It is you who cannot stick to the argument without resorting to name calling and ad-hominem attacks. You have called me a liar, cold-blooded, not mentally sane, and the like.
[1] https://medium.com/@mehrdadyousefi_/was-muslim-conquest-of-p...
Amusing how you have to explicitly add "violent" as if this was exclusive to Islam, but not Christianity or Judiasm, thereby living out your islamophobic tendencies. Arguing that Islam or Christianity isn't a country is a matter of semantics and distracts from the more substantial point. While neither is a 'country' in the political sense, both religions have established comprehensive systems of law, culture, and governance, creating communities and territories with armies and defined identities and practices that can be analogous to the functions of a country. The spirit of the comparison lies in their influence and organization, not in the technicality of the term 'country.' Point is that they had armies and it was very common and expected to clash with other armies.
>Hear, hear, now hardly a day passes without another UN resolution against Israel, sponsored by the same elements, who then accuse Israel of not complying with the resolutions. If the resolutions are non-binding, why do they keep accusing Israel of not heeding them? On the other hand, do we get to pick and choose which resolutions we will heed or not?
You are just arguing for the sake of arguing at this point and it's a waste of time to entertain your dishonesty. Israel does not even follow international law so it's pointless to argue about other cases.
>Was Egypt not massing troops in preparation for an attack on Israel? Or are we living in separate universes.
Nope, busted! According to declassified israeli documents there was NEVER such a threat and this was also explained in the documentary I've linked you which you clearly didn't even bother to study. Israel made up lies after the fact, like they always do, that's why the documentary is also called "The Conflict based on a lie" - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dy56Q1a0Flc
>You are avoiding my question: In your opinion, is the conflict not be resolvable until Israel is obliterated? And, what does the fact that I'm black have to do with anything?
You really have to ask me about the relevancy of a black man defending apartheid? Having a conversation with you is completely pointless, but that's pretty much the case with all zionists. To answer your question, yes, the only realistic outcome for peace is for israel to suffer a complete defeat, because israeli society is so drunk on decades of impunity that its racism and bloodthirst have reached unfathomable levels. The "2 state solution" is and was always a lie and netanyahu and his ilk have confirmed repeatedly the last days but they stated this for decades. It was theater all along, that's why they always kept expanding their illegal settlements.
>Oh, so you don't want a proper solution for now. You just you want a ceasefire that gives Hamas a reprieve to continue to build up their capacity to massacre Israeli civilians again.
no, I want to simply stop the ongoing genocide that israel is committing, like any sane human being would want, which zionists like you clearly arent.
>Again, you don't answer my question: How do you live with, or negotiate, with an adversary who is only seeking your total destruction? What exactly does Hamas want again?
I did answer your question, you clearly just lack reading comprehension skills. Khamas actually, contrary to your insinuation, has indicated that they would be interested in a 2 state solution, which will never manifest anyway, it's a lie that has been perpetuated by settlers to give them time to expand their illegal settlements. And again, every Zionist accusation is a confession, it's Israel that has always sought the total destruction of Palestine which they have repeatedly stated. Palestinians having this desire is not the "gotcha" you think it is, because any sane human being would want their land back in full, so it's hilarious that zionists are thinking that this realization is some deep insight and good talking point of theirs.
> You have called me a liar, cold-blooded, not mentally sane, and the like.
And I fully stand by it, anyone who is a neutral observer can read the full discussion and testify to it.
From reading your comments in this thread, you are clearly over-invested in this conflict and this doesn't do anything to help anyone, nor your own mental health.
HN is a place for curious discussion and insults like you have been throwing around don't contribute to that environment in any way.
If someone is justifying genocide and you question their sanity then it's them being hostile and you being reasonable.
>From reading your comments in this thread, you are clearly over-invested in this conflict
I'm not over-invested, no one can ever be over-invested in trying to prevent genocide. I will call a spade a spade, participating in fake civility to entertain someone's bad faith behavior is also not something conducive to a "curious discussion".
Well, personally attacking someone goes against the guidelines, no matter how strongly you feel about something. This is something the mods are very concerned about. But I'm not surprised, because reason goes out the window whenever the anti-Israel crowd are in the room. Unable to convince by rational argument, they resort to personal attacks.
At this point, I don't believe you are arguing in any good faith, and you seem not to realize your own biases and contradictions. You have no factual responses to my comments other than personal attacks, so there is no basis for further discussion.
Ignoring 99% of the rebuttal on which you have been exposed as a crude propagandist just to focus on a point which helps you live out your eternal victimhood.
>Unable to convince by rational argument, they resort to personal attacks.
You are literally skipping and ignoring every argument of mine to regurgitate your washed up hasbara and are then surprised when people call out your behavior in a candid manner.
>At this point, I don't believe you are arguing in any good faith, and you seem not to realize your own biases and contradictions. You have no factual responses to my comments other than personal attacks, so there is no basis for further discussion.
100% projection, you perfectly described yourself here and any neutral observer can testify to it.
Zionism did not exist until the late 19th century and was based in Berlin at the time england suggested splitting up the middle east.
The who “our history from God” thing is a retconn.
Regardless, your narrative is false because we know exactly what the founding father of Zionism, Theodor Herzl, wrote about Zionism in great detail in his book "Der Judenstaat" and it was a colonial project from day 1. They even considered colonizing Alaska or Uganda before they decided to colonize Palestine.
There is no hasbara you could tell me that I haven't heard before in my 20 years of dealing with zionists. All of your narratives contradict each other and try to deflect from the reality that "israel" is and was a colonial project from its inception.
Israelis/Jews ARE indigenous to Palestine. If they didn't want to live scattered amongst other peoples who regularly subjected them to pogroms, that is prerogative; It is not for me or you to judge. A substantial part of the Israelis are Mizrahi and Sephardic Jews, not the Ashkenazi who are being derided as "colonialists" (although that is also quite a suspect argument).
Israel's dishonesty is exceptional, it perpetually lies about pretty much everything from its origins to its motivations and its history. They want to be the perpetual victim and simultaneously the great conquerors, their politics are riddled with contradictions and deceit to the core.
>Israelis/Jews ARE indigenous to Palestine.
Nope, that's a lie. The overwhelming majority ~98%+ of Israelis are NOT indigenous to Palestine. Israel tried to manipulate people for years with this talking point but failed, most of their strategies are very well documented here[0].
>If they didn't want to live scattered amongst other peoples who regularly subjected them to pogroms, that is prerogative;It is not for me or you to judge. A substantial part of the Israelis are Mizrahi and Sephardic Jews, not the Ashkenazi who are being derided as "colonialists"
Well now jews regularly subject Palestinians to pogroms[1] isn't that wonderful, the colonialists behaving like colonialists do, so it's not a derision, it's a fact. if it squats like a colonialist, steals like a colonialist and ethnically cleanses like a colonialist then it is in fact a colonialist.
[0] "Israelis Are Not 'Indigenous' (and other ridiculous pro-Israel arguments)" - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhlUFPpXIVo
[1] "The Pogrom Against Palestinians That Brought the Occupation Home to Jewish Israelis" - https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/2023-03-19/ty-article-opinio...
> Israel's dishonesty is exceptional, it perpetually lies about pretty much everything from its origins to its motivations and its history. They want to be the perpetual victim and simultaneously the great conquerors, their politics are riddled with contradictions and deceit to the core.
This is not a factual, falsifiable argument, so I can't even respond to it. But it demonstrates that your arguments are based on emotional opinion, with no basis in actual facts.
> Nope, that's a lie. The overwhelming majority ~98%+ of Israelis are NOT indigenous to Palestine.
So you're saying the Jews that lived there since BCE times are all mostly gone? I wonder why. Might it have something to do with the violent Islamic conquest of the Middle East? it is like saying the Copts in Egypt can be ignored as indigenous because they are small part of the Egyptian population now.
This is just infantile rhetoric, you're just regurgitating israeli propaganda but are accusing others of arguing based on emotions, keep projecting.
>This is not a factual, falsifiable argument, so I can't even respond to it. But it demonstrates that your arguments are based on emotional opinion, with no basis in actual facts.
Wrong, it is in fact a factual & falsifiable argument since there are many documented and contradictory ways zionists tried to justify their colonial project throughout history especially by regurgitating from a script which even the jidf[0] followed to convince people on social media of their false narratives.
>So you're saying the Jews that lived there since BCE times are all mostly gone? I wonder why. Might it have something to do with the violent Islamic conquest of the Middle East? it is like saying the Copts in Egypt can be ignored as indigenous because they are small part of the Egyptian population now.
And there we have it, when confronted with facts that are overwhelming you zionists always resort to reductionist and false islamophobic narratives. Too bad that your little hasbara story contradicts research of David Wasserstein - a Professor of Jewish studies who says "Islam saved Jewry. This is an unpopular, discomforting claim in the modern world. But it is a historical truth."[1]
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Internet_Defense_Force
[1] https://jewishstudies.stanford.edu/events/david-wasserstein-...
This is just infantile rhetoric, you're just regurgitating israeli propaganda but are accusing others of arguing based on emotions, keep projecting.
>This is not a factual, falsifiable argument, so I can't even respond to it. But it demonstrates that your arguments are based on emotional opinion, with no basis in actual facts.
Wrong, it is in fact a factual & falsifiable argument since there are many documented and contradictory ways zionists tried to justify their colonial project throughout history especially by regurgitating from a script which even the jidf[0] followed to convince people on social media of their false narratives.
>So you're saying the Jews that lived there since BCE times are all mostly gone? I wonder why. Might it have something to do with the violent Islamic conquest of the Middle East? it is like saying the Copts in Egypt can be ignored as indigenous because they are small part of the Egyptian population now.
And there we have it, when confronted with facts that are overwhelming you zionists always resort to reductionist and false islamophobic narratives. Too bad that your little hasbara story contradicts research of David Wasserstein - a Professor of Jewish studies who says "Islam saved Jewry. This is an unpopular, discomforting claim in the modern world. But it is a historical truth."[1]
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Internet_Defense_Force
[1] https://jewishstudies.stanford.edu/events/david-wasserstein-...
Wrong, it is in fact a factual & falsifiable argument since there are many documented and contradictory ways zionists tried to justify their colonial project throughout history especially by regurgitating from a script which even the jidf[0] followed to convince people on social media of their false narratives.
>So you're saying the Jews that lived there since BCE times are all mostly gone? I wonder why. Might it have something to do with the violent Islamic conquest of the Middle East? it is like saying the Copts in Egypt can be ignored as indigenous because they are small part of the Egyptian population now.
And there we have it, when confronted with facts that are overwhelming you zionists always resort to reductionist and false islamophobic narratives. Too bad that your little hasbara story contradicts research of David Wasserstein - a Professor of Jewish studies who says "Islam saved Jewry. This is an unpopular, discomforting claim in the modern world. But it is a historical truth."[1]
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Internet_Defense_Force
[1] https://jewishstudies.stanford.edu/events/david-wasserstein-...
Noticed how little sympathy the people in Palestine get compared to people in Ukraine? Why do you think that is? If I was to say the Palestinians are Arab savages I would be reprimanded for being prejudice but making excuses for their continuing genocide isnt prejudice?
These commenters are just articulating the same venom that their parents and grandparents did, in a different way but its the same bile fundamentally. Preaching logic to hateful people that think they are superior makes as much sense in 2024 as it did in Malcolm X’s day. Dont bother trying to talk logic to people like that, they dont listen to your kind.
Thanks for clarifying. Most European Zionists, including Theodor Herzl, were and still are secular. These false post hoc narratives about religious motivations are a deflection from the real reason why Zionists wanted to colonize Palestine and it had nothing to do with religious folklore. It only became a talking point later when colonialism became a "bad word" and they were trying to legitimize their colonial project via other means.
>Noticed how little sympathy the people in Palestine get compared to people in Ukraine? Why do you think that is? If I was to say the Palestinians are Arab savages I would be reprimanded for being prejudice but making excuses for their continuing genocide isnt prejudice?
You could say that arabs or muslims are savages without facing any serious repercussions in most cases assuming that you live in Europe or America. In theory Islamophobia, like any other form of bigotry like antisemitism or homophobia, is supposedly not acceptable but in reality it is and there is an overwhelming amount of evidence for it one of which you already stated.
In reality there is an hierarchy of victimhood, where the validity and impact of different groups' experiences are often weighed and measured differently by those in positions of power or with societal influence.
The biggest irony is that the same people who are quick to shut down any form of criticism of israel, by intentionally conflating a political entity with jewish people itself, by screaming antisemitism, also engage in the most viscous Islamophobic tropes to defend their apartheid ethno-state while seeing absolutely no irony in their own bigotry. So it's obvious that it's not really about being tolerant or civilized, but rather about cleverly weaponizing narratives to reshape politics in one's own best interest.
>These commenters are just articulating the same venom that their parents and grandparents did, in a different way but its the same bile fundamentally. Preaching logic to hateful people that think they are superior makes as much sense in 2024 as it did in Malcolm X’s day. Dont bother trying to talk logic to people like that, they dont listen to your kind.
You're correct, but they are also assisted by the fact that geopolitical dynamics provide them with impunity such that their psychotic behavior compounds over time because it never gets checked and thus mutates into worse behavior over time.
Funny how people like you never seem to have any reservations to what Israel did, like the perpetual ethnic-cleansing and apartheid policies, or any of the history of the past 75+ yrs