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Re:On being listed as an artist whose work was used to train... by pushedx on Tuesday January 16, 2024 @01:36PM (#39016888)
This was a reference to Instagram, et. al., where distributing your illustrations there implicitly allows thier Ad machine to profit from your work
Re:On being listed as an artist whose work was used to train... by idopmstuff on Tuesday January 16, 2024 @01:45PM (#39017062)
This seems like a strange criticism to me - if you're posting your illustrations on social media, it's presumably because you feel that you're getting value out of doing so. Who cares if they're also getting value out of you doing it, particularly when that value comes at no cost to you?

If you sell your art, then art marketplaces and printers and shipping services all profit from your work, but I don't imagine she's complaining about that. What's the difference? In all of those cases, as with social media, companies are making money from your work in return for providing a useful service to you (and one you don't have to use if you don't think it's useful).

Re:On being listed as an artist whose work was used to train... by godelski on Tuesday January 16, 2024 @04:36PM (#39019480)
> This seems like a strange criticism to me

On the contrary, I think it is very natural. The environment changed, and thus the deal. There's no clear way to negotiate the terms of the deal. It may be easy to say to just drop off the platform, but we've seen how difficult it can be to destroy a social media platform. Sure, Myspace and Google+ failed, but they didn't have the network base that Facebook and Twitter do which have also fallen into this trap (I'd even add Amazon here for the more general context. Certainly none of these companies are optimizing for the public because there's difference between who their customers are and the public). Network effects are powerful.

So I see complaints like these as attempts to alter the deal and start a coalition. The deal was changed under them, so why do they not have a right to attempt to negotiate? It is quite clear that there is a very large power differential. It's quite clear that unless you're exceptionally famous (which means the alteration is less impactful) that abandoning the platform comes at risking your entire livelihood unless you can garner a large enough coalition. It's like quitting a shitty job without a new job and not knowing who would hire you. Most people are going to stick around and complain __while__ looking for a way out.

Re:On being listed as an artist whose work was used to train... by pas on Tuesday January 16, 2024 @05:56PM (#39020326)
The author reminisces of a time that was favorable to them, and implies that back then somehow it was free to distribute and this was taken away. Which is interesting, because there were ads back then too. A lot. Banners. Toolbars. Google made money a shitton of money back then too. And there are amazing non-FAANG spaces today like the Fediverse where the author can distribute their work, and the number of users there are easily comparable to the 'old internet' user counts.

But that points at the main question, what was this magical old way of distribution that was somehow pure that's now gone? Mailing lists. Still there. RSS? Still here, Google Reader died (peace be upon it), but the next day others started to grow as its shadow was gone. IRC? Forums?

So maybe the author is really missing the audience? Sure, platforms and powerful interests shape userbases, but it's not like those old sites were run on pure air.

Of course now there's a new possible way to use copyrighted works, and while it's very similar in effect of what human artists can do (and of course sometimes do), there's a very clear difference in scale, economics, control and thus it's natural that politics is involved.

Re:On being listed as an artist whose work was used to train... by godelski on Tuesday January 16, 2024 @07:37PM (#39021430)
> The author reminisces of a time

This sounds like another way to say that the environment changed and thus the deal did.

There's still a ton of ads. And it isn't like Meta is making less money. They're just below their all time high[0] and it's not like there was one of the largest global financial crises between these two periods or something. Meta is in the top 10 for market caps and just shy of getting into the trillion dollar club. I'm not sure what argument you're trying to make because I'm not seeing how Meta (or any FAANG) is struggling.

> And there are amazing non-FAANG spaces today like the Fediverse where the author can distribute their work, and the number of users there are easily comparable to the 'old internet' user counts.

Be realistic. We both know that 1) many of the artists are trying to distribute there, 2) that this doesn't prevent their work from being used in ML models since you can still download the material, 3) the audience is substantially smaller and Mastodon is not even close to replacing Twitter.

> platforms and powerful interests shape userbases

Also remember that platforms with large userbases shape users. There's a reason why the classic Silicon Valley Strategy is to run in the red and attempt to establish a (near) monopoly. Because once you have it, you have a lot of power and can make up for all the cash you burned. Or you now have a product to sell: users.

[0] https://seekingalpha.com/symbol/META

Re:On being listed as an artist whose work was used to train... by ska on Tuesday January 16, 2024 @01:50PM (#39017127)
> Who cares if they're also getting value out of you doing it,

The author, presumably.

> particularly when that value comes at no cost to you?

Who would (has) argued that there is a cost.

> in return for providing a useful service to you (and one you don't have to use if you don't think it's useful).

I think they agree with you, and are making the claim that since they choose not to use the service (considering it exploitative), it is getting increasingly difficult to distribute their work in a way they find ethical.

I'm not sure I agree with their arguments completely, but they aren't really "strange" as you suggest.

Re:On being listed as an artist whose work was used to train... by pushedx on Tuesday January 16, 2024 @03:51PM (#39018954)
> Who cares if they're getting value out if it.

Perhaps your artwork has an anti-capitalist message, and you do not want it to appear anywhere near an Ad for the latest beauty cream.

In the early days of the Internet, there were places to promote a webcomic with no commerical interest, like usenet and forums, and it was typical to visit an artist's website directly.

These days, the average new Internet user might not even be aware of the concept that an artist can have their own website, and own the user experience of visitng that website from end to end. Web design in the early 2000s had a lot of creativity and easter eggs built into the experience of navigating the pages themselves.

An artist absolutely has the right to not want to upload their creative work (which takes days and weeks to produce), onto a bland social media site with it's own terms and conditions with regard how that content is treated and monetized.

Places like Instagram are bleak compared to what was pushing creative boundaries of the web in the mid to late 2000s. Sure, there are still fun websites like this but they are difficult to find (what happened to StumbleUpon?)

Re:On being listed as an artist whose work was used to train... by cosiiine on Tuesday January 16, 2024 @06:23PM (#39020629)
This and social media and almost always the worst possible representation of an artwork. Crunched, cropped and compressed into an inferior version of itself.

We’ve forgotten how to appreciate digital artworks.

Re:On being listed as an artist whose work was used to train... by make3 on Tuesday January 16, 2024 @01:46PM (#39017076)
you decide to put your stuff on Instagram, you don't decide to put your work in midjourney
Re:On being listed as an artist whose work was used to train... by wrsh07 on Tuesday January 16, 2024 @01:59PM (#39017320)
But sometimes your work is put on Instagram without your knowledge or consent (eg by an Instagram aggregator account)

And this whole ecosystem of credit (or not sharing credit) is undoubtedly encouraged by Instagram (because it's valuable to me to have an Instagram account with many followers)

Re:On being listed as an artist whose work was used to train... by freejazz on Tuesday January 16, 2024 @02:21PM (#39017710)
>But sometimes your work is put on Instagram without your knowledge or consent (eg by an Instagram aggregator account)

That's copyright infringement. You can't claim to own other people's work and then give license to others to use when you don't own the work.

Re:On being listed as an artist whose work was used to train... by wrsh07 on Tuesday January 16, 2024 @03:41PM (#39018842)
Of course it is! It being illegal doesn't mean Instagram is incentivized to crack down on it

And if you're a tiny independent artist you also aren't well-resourced to do anything about it.

(Afaict the best thing we can do is maintain a culture that demands attribution)

Re:On being listed as an artist whose work was used to train... by freejazz on Tuesday January 16, 2024 @05:23PM (#39019996)
I represent tiny independent artists and the best thing you can do is hope that some moneyed media company infringes your work. They never have an excuse and they always pay up.
Re:On being listed as an artist whose work was used to train... by wrsh07 on Wednesday January 17, 2024 @09:05AM (#39027810)
But that's not what happens on Instagram

This isn't like some TV ad using a song they forgot to license

Re:On being listed as an artist whose work was used to train... by freejazz on Wednesday January 17, 2024 @01:38PM (#39031619)
I've recovered for uses on Instagram
Re:On being listed as an artist whose work was used to train... by godelski on Tuesday January 16, 2024 @04:40PM (#39019533)
Sure, but it is quite difficult to prove your work was used in the models and it is also quite expensive legally while being very time consuming. So in practice does it matter? I still believe in presumption of innocence, but that isn't to say that it can't be exploited and that the system itself is expensive (monetarily and temporally). I think you're just oversimplifying the issue and dismissing before considering any nuance.
Re:On being listed as an artist whose work was used to train... by freejazz on Tuesday January 16, 2024 @11:47PM (#39023424)
what am I dismissing? I think these AI companies are stealing these works. Nerds here are equivocating the creation of art with what LLM output, simply out of their own inexperience making art. It's terrible and I hate it.
Re:On being listed as an artist whose work was used to train... by godelski on Wednesday January 17, 2024 @01:56AM (#39024190)
I believe I misinterpreted, it sounded like you were just suggesting it was copyright and thus could empower the artist to sue the companies. As if the process was rather straightforward and thus the fault on the artist for not pursuing. I'll admit that I'm primed by other comments which do express this sentiment explicitly. Sorry if I misunderstood.
Re:On being listed as an artist whose work was used to train... by jMyles on Tuesday January 16, 2024 @01:50PM (#39017143)
Is that boundary something that the internet is likely to be able to recognize or enforce though? In 100 years? In 500?

What are we building for here?

Re:On being listed as an artist whose work was used to train... by spamizbad on Tuesday January 16, 2024 @01:55PM (#39017228)
If the boundary isn't enforced you'll likely see art move increasingly to a patronage system, whereby a select elite will get to choose what art is suitable for your consumption. Maybe you'll like that, maybe you won't.
Re:On being listed as an artist whose work was used to train... by godelski on Tuesday January 16, 2024 @04:53PM (#39019665)
> you'll likely see art move increasingly to a patronage system

It is?

But also this is dismissive without understanding either system at play. Traditional art has galleries because no one wants to buy art that they haven't seen. But this creates a problem if our galleries are on the internet. It no longer matters how much you attempt to stop a user from downloading or copying the art, they still can. We even see efforts to watermark art on public posting but we also see efforts to remove the watermarks. It's very clear to me that this is becoming a more complex time to be an artist than it was, say 5 years ago. Maybe better than 100 years ago, but that would be ridiculous to compare to as we'd have to get into an argument about the point of societies and if a goal is to make life better.

Strangely this is something some in the NFT crowd were attempting to solve. We can all agree that there were lots of scams (I'd even say dominated by scams and grifting) in the area and that there was poor execution of even good faith attempts, but I'm just trying to say that this was motivation for sum. They weren't even trying to solve as difficult of a problem, they were just trying to solve the problem of proof of ownership. It's not like you can use timestamps or public/private key pairs for proof. It still wouldn't even solve the problem of redistribution or training. It wouldn't prevent someone from even buying the art and training on it even if the artist specified that that was against the TOS (a whole other philosophical debate about TOS and physical ownership that I don't want to get into).

I think you're simplifying the problem and being ready to dismiss without adequately demonstrating an understanding of the issues and environment. I don't know what the answer is but I sure as hell know it is a lot more complex than "let the 'free market' run its course".

Re:On being listed as an artist whose work was used to train... by 8note on Tuesday January 16, 2024 @02:14PM (#39017570)
We have a patronage system today. See: services like patreon
Re:On being listed as an artist whose work was used to train... by jMyles on Tuesday January 16, 2024 @05:15PM (#39019908)
I think it depends in large part on how the moving parts interact.

If the emergence of automata and internet creatures also means that people can spend more of their time doing what makes them happy, and if people doing that results in amazing art and music emerging, then I don't think that the purvey of selection will be so dangerously cornered by an elite.

But it's up to us to do the work to build that future.

Re:On being listed as an artist whose work was used to train... by make3 on Tuesday January 16, 2024 @01:58PM (#39017286)
you mean, is the right of an individual human to property and the rule of law be recognized in 100 or 500 years?

hopefully yes, unless you foresee some inescapable transfer to dictatorship, which you'll have to argue for to maintain your argument

Re:On being listed as an artist whose work was used to train... by jMyles on Tuesday January 16, 2024 @03:28PM (#39018671)
I meant something softer and simpler, like power structures which somehow convince learning machines to avert their gaze when media from a forbidden domain appears.

That just doesn't seem like the direction of the internet to me.

As for the rule of law, it seems that what we're talking about here is what authority can be capable of supplying the law. I highly doubt that a confusing and contradictory set of mandates from nation states will continue to be "the law" on the internet.

Re:On being listed as an artist whose work was used to train... by kelnos on Tuesday January 16, 2024 @04:54PM (#39019673)
Yes, and I'm sure somewhere in the Instagram terms of service, users have agreed to license their work to Instagram for those purposes.