News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Ask HN: Should I try to manufacture toasters? by tcmart14 on Tuesday January 16, 2024 @01:12AM (#39010024)
Its not there to help incumbents. New companies come up all the time to make these kinds of products. Its a barrier to entry to keep Joe dipshit who learned how to solder together two wires last night thinking he can has an overnight get rich quick scheme shoddily throwing some random components together without knowing or acknowledging what they are really doing and selling that product to some unsuspecting person that is gonna get to experience a (maybe?) fun spark show and electrical fire as soon as they plug in their new device. Its happened enough that these barriers have pretty much become required. But if someone is serious about making a product, they will take the necessary steps for certification.
Re:Ask HN: Should I try to manufacture toasters? by fullspectrumdev on Tuesday January 16, 2024 @02:20AM (#39010382)
I thought this was America, why are we infringing on Joe Dipshits god given right to sell incendiary devices on random delay timers to unsuspecting members of the public?
Re:Ask HN: Should I try to manufacture toasters? by ssl-3 on Tuesday January 16, 2024 @03:55AM (#39011041)
Nonsense! I did my own research, and I purchased this incendiary device on purpose!
Re:Ask HN: Should I try to manufacture toasters? by wegfawefgawefg on Tuesday January 16, 2024 @01:57AM (#39010259)
I believe you, but arent you suspicious of the Big Toasta superconglomerate.
Re:Ask HN: Should I try to manufacture toasters? by bigfudge on Tuesday January 16, 2024 @02:55AM (#39010639)
Although I don’t want random delay incendiary devices either, I do have some sympathy with OP. The net effect of all regulations like this means large classes of business are not feasible unless you have substantial capital. And availability of capital for good ideas is not at all evenly distributed in our society (the UK at least). This is just one more way that we are going to entrench low social mobility. Note also, it’s not just electronics regs that act in this way - our societies have become much more regulated and rule bound in my life time. Often things for good reason, but we should think about the ways in which this entrenches incumbents imo.
Re:Ask HN: Should I try to manufacture toasters? by mschuster91 on Tuesday January 16, 2024 @04:05AM (#39011126)
> Note also, it’s not just electronics regs that act in this way - our societies have become much more regulated and rule bound in my life time. Often things for good reason.

After WW2 we were in a high-trust, low-barrier society state across the Western world [1]. You could leave your door unlocked and no one would come and rob you, your children could roam free as they pleased, you could start what could become a multi-billion dollar enterprise in your garage and neither the IRS nor "HOA enforcers" would raise an eyebrow or keep annoying you with audits, you could afford a home with a garage in the first place even as a blue collar worker. And that worked out pretty well in retrospective - we had a literally booming economy from both large giants as well as small startups, people had lots of children as they actually had money, employees in companies had actual freedom to decide things even on lower levels where the actual work happened, employees entered their company at 16-18 and left at 65-ish, and the focus of upper management was to keep the company healthy.

Around / after the fall of the USSR, things took a serious nosedive all at once. A lot of solid blue-collar employment got moved off overseas, poverty shot through the roof (and with it, related crimes like burglaries and robberies), IRS shifted from enforcing the tax code fairly to focusing on small businesses and people (partially because the uber rich and international megacorps now employed sizable amounts of lawyers and tax specialists that created schemes that were way too complex for the IRS to dig through), companies more and more focused on quarterly results, short-term benefits and financial plays instead of sustainability (we're seeing right now with Boeing how a once proud company has fallen to the MBA beancounters), employers completely forgot about responsibility for their workers and hired-and-fired them in response to said quarterly results, the resulting loss of trust led to absurd micromanaging from above, and everyone in general went for "side hustles" and squeezing out some tiny amounts of money for themselves by tricking others because there was no other way.

And the combination of all of that is IMHO what created the low-trust society state we are in: we cannot trust our neighbour, our employer, a random hobo on the streets, the government, no one any more.

[1] Yes, I know, distrust against non-Whites, LGBT, ... was a (massive) thing but that's not my point here. And yes, I'm painting a rose-colored picture, and realities could vastly differ.

Re:Ask HN: Should I try to manufacture toasters? by wegfawefgawefg on Tuesday January 16, 2024 @08:05AM (#39012836)
The low trust part could mostly be a (percieved) race thing. I wont claim to understand human psychology.

But I dont think thats enough to explain this. Something relevant, a lot of the houses that were allowed to be built in the 40s would be illegal now. I could probably build a decently sized small house with a garage with a cousin for 20-30k. But it would be illegal to live in. Even in the countryside... and eventually the taxman would find me, which forces us to not build something to use, but build something that functions as an investment.

Re:Ask HN: Should I try to manufacture toasters? by JoeAltmaier on Tuesday January 16, 2024 @08:09AM (#39012857)
Hm. Where I live, I built my house in the country. There were no rules, no inspections except well and septic by the county health department.

Maybe other counties have the resources to create bureaucracies. But her in the Midwest there's not the budget for creating elaborate rules, much less paying inspectors.

Re:Ask HN: Should I try to manufacture toasters? by wegfawefgawefg on Tuesday January 16, 2024 @08:40AM (#39013135)
The majority of the US population lives in places where thats not the case.
Re:Ask HN: Should I try to manufacture toasters? by JoeAltmaier on Tuesday January 16, 2024 @10:29AM (#39014336)
Right, right. But where you live is a choice.
Re:Ask HN: Should I try to manufacture toasters? by wegfawefgawefg on Wednesday January 17, 2024 @05:21AM (#39025854)
Not if there are visa requirements, no non remote job opportunities, or you have all your family in the current city you live, and they are potentially ageing, and your kids are in local school, or you dont want to quit current job, or you are so broke you cant get an initial land / dwelling funds in the target location.

Any of those and youve captured most of the working population of the US.

Re:Ask HN: Should I try to manufacture toasters? by JoeAltmaier on Wednesday January 17, 2024 @09:55AM (#39028534)
That's again, largely choice.

Sure, some folks have a hard time choosing where to live, I get it. If we're honest, most folks just live by default wherever. They don't want to change.

And you vastly overestimate the cost of living outside major cities. It's a tiny fraction of what you might imagine.

I think I agree, if we recast it as 'inertia', it captures most of the working population of the US.

Re:Ask HN: Should I try to manufacture toasters? by mschuster91 on Tuesday January 16, 2024 @12:18PM (#39015856)
> The low trust part could mostly be a (percieved) race thing. I wont claim to understand human psychology.

Racism definitely plays a part in here ("white flight"), but it's by far not the dominant issue.

> Something relevant, a lot of the houses that were allowed to be built in the 40s would be illegal now.

Indeed, but their designs are illegal nowadays for good reasons, mostly related to fire code or structural integrity. Way too many people have literally died in their sleep in unsafe homes. Statista only goes back to 1977 for residential fire deaths, but even that shows a serious reduction of cases over the decades [1].

[1] https://www.statista.com/statistics/376703/us-civilian-fire-...

Re:Ask HN: Should I try to manufacture toasters? by wegfawefgawefg on Wednesday January 17, 2024 @05:23AM (#39025880)
You have to make a choice. High homelessness, "communism", or cheap unregulated housing options.

You cant have safety and freedom.

I do think building codes are valid in cities. Outside of cities it should be a free for all, but its not.

However, building codes now are insanely overreaching. I have lived in japan for a few years and found many of the features in buildings here would never be allowed in the US. Minimum stairwell widths, door sizes, building sizes, parking lot requirements, etc. Modern Japanese buildings are probably 100 times safer but would fail american building code.

Point is if the argument is we need regulation for safety it needs to actually be for safety, and minimally.

Re:Ask HN: Should I try to manufacture toasters? by jen20 on Tuesday January 16, 2024 @12:14PM (#39015810)
> Around / after the fall of the USSR, things took a serious nosedive all at once.

That may be when the effect was felt, but the seeds were planted much earlier than this - at least 20 years.

Re:Ask HN: Should I try to manufacture toasters? by boppo1 on Tuesday January 16, 2024 @07:34AM (#39012600)
>going to entrench low social mobility

Pretty sure we're already there.

Re:Ask HN: Should I try to manufacture toasters? by tcmart14 on Tuesday January 16, 2024 @01:05PM (#39016472)
No not Big Toasta, but I am highly suspicious of Big Waffle Makah. How do you make a breakfast meal that also is sort of like a desert? This is highly questionable behavior.
Re:Ask HN: Should I try to manufacture toasters? by hoseja on Tuesday January 16, 2024 @04:04AM (#39011113)
>unsuspecting

Therein lies the crux, I think. Perhaps lowering the consumer trust barriers boosts the economy, perhaps it's the road to hell.