News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:DMARC required by Gmail and Yahoo from Feb 2024 by orliesaurus on Wednesday January 10, 2024 @12:04AM (#38936431)
You're talking about Transactional emails? You cant unsubscribe from TRANSACTIONAL emails. That's why they're transactional...not marketing. It's really important to differentiate that.
Re:DMARC required by Gmail and Yahoo from Feb 2024 by darylteo on Wednesday January 10, 2024 @12:06AM (#38936445)
I "know" that.

I'm asking how does Google differentiate between a transactional and a non transactional email?

They also say in their guidelines

> *Marketing messages and subscribed messages* must support one-click unsubscribe, and include a clearly visible unsubscribe link in the message body.

So how is Google determining what is a Marketing/Subscribed message? If they're not, then am I required to tack on this header to ALL emails regardless of type or risk getting binned?

Re:DMARC required by Gmail and Yahoo from Feb 2024 by orliesaurus on Wednesday January 10, 2024 @12:18AM (#38936513)
Ahhh I see what you mean now, but it wasn't clear in your initial question.

Gmail's algorithms analyzes, and has been doing over the last ~20 years, a combination of factors to classify emails as promotional or transactional!

Nothing in the code itself of your email will indicate that, other than the presence of an unsub link + the rest of the footer (which is the obvious sign that's a marketing email)

Re:DMARC required by Gmail and Yahoo from Feb 2024 by jcrites on Wednesday January 10, 2024 @12:34AM (#38936598)
If you’re sending transactional emails like password resets or MFA, then the emails will have close to a 100% open rate. This is (likely) an important factor that Google uses to judge whether email is transactional, or more generally whether it is desired by recipients, alongside other factors like having a very low complaint rate.
Re:DMARC required by Gmail and Yahoo from Feb 2024 by MaxGabriel on Wednesday January 10, 2024 @12:42AM (#38936654)
100% open rate on transactional emails feels too high to me. Something like an e-commerce purchase might kick off multiple emails (purchase made, shipped, arrived), none of which the user opens
Re:DMARC required by Gmail and Yahoo from Feb 2024 by jcrites on Wednesday January 10, 2024 @03:34AM (#38937748)
Sorry, to clarify, I only mean this particular type of transactional email: password reset, MFA.

But even for other types of transactional emails, like shipment confirmations, I would expect the open rate to be much higher and/or the complaint rate to be much lower than for marketing email.

Re:DMARC required by Gmail and Yahoo from Feb 2024 by josephg on Wednesday January 10, 2024 @05:49AM (#38938789)
It’s also not a bad idea to provide an unsubscribe option for shipment updates.
Re:DMARC required by Gmail and Yahoo from Feb 2024 by stubish on Wednesday January 10, 2024 @01:00AM (#38936762)
Kicking off a chain of emails a user cannot easily opt out of could well be the sort of emails users want to lose. There probably should be a one-click 'stop emailing me' button, for this and future purchases. Which would be a support burden, yes.
Re:DMARC required by Gmail and Yahoo from Feb 2024 by behringer on Wednesday January 10, 2024 @01:33AM (#38936971)
I watch for the subject line. I don't actually care what the content says...
Re:DMARC required by Gmail and Yahoo from Feb 2024 by Wicher on Wednesday January 10, 2024 @05:37AM (#38938679)
So... let's assume many users do this, and let's assume Google factors in the opening rate into the transactional-email-likeness score, and that transactional-email-senders become widely aware of this...

Then senders' incentive will become to make the subject line into clickbait for the content, so that you'll open the message. So instead of subjects like "Order placed", "Order paid", "Order shipped", "Order out for delivery" you'll get uniform subjects along the lines of "IMPORTANT UPDATE TO YOUR ORDER". You will lose efficiency getting through your emails, and over time the metric will lose its indicativeness. Everybody loses.

Re:DMARC required by Gmail and Yahoo from Feb 2024 by plg94 on Wednesday January 10, 2024 @09:48AM (#38939478)
Some of these emails are legally required for online shops. Doesn't matter if the user wants to receive them or not, they _have to_ be sent and actually delivered to the user's inbox.
Re:DMARC required by Gmail and Yahoo from Feb 2024 by persolb on Wednesday January 10, 2024 @07:56PM (#38945931)
I'm not sure how the 'actually delivered' would be enforced. Does Google have an affirmative requirement to deliver a 3rd parties message? I hope not.

My gmail address received 35 emails yesterday (which didn't get spam filtered). All but 3 of those got auto-archived by the filters I have in gmail. I would love google to just do this automatically.

Practically I might need another message or two a week that didn't hit my inbox.... but that's fine as long as it's as it is still searchable.

Re:DMARC required by Gmail and Yahoo from Feb 2024 by blowski on Wednesday January 10, 2024 @12:18PM (#38940834)
We’ve received your order … we’ve taken payment for your order … your order has left our warehouse … your order has arrived in another warehouse … your order is with a delivery driver … all for a $5 cable.
Re:DMARC required by Gmail and Yahoo from Feb 2024 by JimDabell on Wednesday January 10, 2024 @03:14AM (#38937591)
> If you’re sending transactional emails like password resets or MFA, then the emails will have close to a 100% open rate.

So I can disable a competitor’s email functionality by triggering a whole bunch of password reset requests for all discoverable usernames?

Re:DMARC required by Gmail and Yahoo from Feb 2024 by jcrites on Wednesday January 10, 2024 @03:35AM (#38937757)
That could potentially cause them problems, yeah, if you were able to do that endlessly. In practice most companies will have some kind of rate limiting in place around features like that (by IP, cookie, captcha, etc.)
Re:DMARC required by Gmail and Yahoo from Feb 2024 by JimDabell on Wednesday January 10, 2024 @03:56AM (#38937912)
IP and cookie-based rate-limiting are trivially bypassed. In fact, any kind of rate-limiting is ineffective here, especially for smaller organisations, because you only need to generate a small fraction of the traffic they normally send out. If they separate transactional mail from other types of mail (something that is frequently recommended), then how many illegitimate password reset emails do you think an attacker needs to trigger to get to, say, a 5% failure rate? Smaller organisations don’t send out an awful lot of transactional email.
Re:DMARC required by Gmail and Yahoo from Feb 2024 by jcrites on Friday January 12, 2024 @03:56PM (#38973911)
True, but modern CAPTCHA rate limiting is not easily bypassed, and a lot of the solutions are free.

Together with cookies, you can show the captcha only to visitors that are not already recognized in some way, giving them a limited number of actions before showing the captcha. And regardless of whether you want one on your password reset page, you almost certainly want one on your login page anyway.

Re:DMARC required by Gmail and Yahoo from Feb 2024 by renewiltord on Wednesday January 10, 2024 @11:11AM (#38940138)
If they support SMS 2FA they need to be prepared for this too because it costs a lot. Yeah, so people need to ensure that reset is at least a little hard to abuse. After all, it's a bad experience for their users if they receive a shit ton of reset emails anyway.
Re:DMARC required by Gmail and Yahoo from Feb 2024 by Breza on Friday January 19, 2024 @07:24AM (#39054624)
Can confirm that last part. I get so many Facebook reset messages, it's a bit ridiculous.
Re:DMARC required by Gmail and Yahoo from Feb 2024 by mitthrowaway2 on Wednesday January 10, 2024 @03:16AM (#38937607)
I rarely open 2FA emails, because usually the displayed preview is all I need.
Re:DMARC required by Gmail and Yahoo from Feb 2024 by quickthrower2 on Wednesday January 10, 2024 @01:00AM (#38936765)
I open way less than 100% of password resets - because some are malicious.
Re:DMARC required by Gmail and Yahoo from Feb 2024 by LoganDark on Wednesday January 10, 2024 @01:32AM (#38936962)
Well, I wish my ISP would stop marking ads and promotions as "transactional". Just because they have a system that prohibits unsubscribing, doesn't mean they should be allowed to abuse that system.
Re:DMARC required by Gmail and Yahoo from Feb 2024 by 93po on Wednesday January 10, 2024 @11:35AM (#38940398)
I've had a website that sent me no fewer than 6 emails over the course of 10 days for a single transaction, 5 of which were full of ads and links to their website and products. I emailed them and asked them to stop and their response was there was no way to opt out, they were transactional for new accounts.
Re:DMARC required by Gmail and Yahoo from Feb 2024 by LoganDark on Wednesday January 10, 2024 @06:07PM (#38944831)
My ISP constantly sends me emails about "staying safe online" and "the holiday season". At the bottom of the email, it says "THIS IS A SERVICE-RELATED EMAIL", supposedly to excuse the lack of any unsubscribe link.

Unfortunately you are no longer allowed to take them to court over this, as their terms of service simply say you are no longer allowed to sue them :) just like all tech companies that know they're committing lawsuit-worthy offenses.

Re:DMARC required by Gmail and Yahoo from Feb 2024 by wl on Wednesday January 10, 2024 @03:44AM (#38937830)
Maybe transactional emails don't need an unsubscribe link like marketing emails, but they do need a "not my account; please stop" link to avoid the spam button.
Re:DMARC required by Gmail and Yahoo from Feb 2024 by andersa on Wednesday January 10, 2024 @04:24AM (#38938117)
Why would you be receiving transactional emails for an account that isn't yours?
Re:DMARC required by Gmail and Yahoo from Feb 2024 by josephg on Wednesday January 10, 2024 @05:56AM (#38938849)
Hah. I have josephg@gmail. I sometimes wake up to threads of 6+ password reset attempts over an hour from someone who doesn’t know their own email address. For a couple years I got pay stubs. And monthly cell phone invoices from India.

I think that email address gets more email for other people than email for me at this point.

Re:DMARC required by Gmail and Yahoo from Feb 2024 by guiambros on Wednesday January 10, 2024 @09:57PM (#38946915)
Same. Flights trips -- including PNR. Invoices. School reports. Tons of telephone bills. Frequent Uber trips (somewhere in Africa, for some reason). The list goes on and on. And my email address is short but not that common, but still get hit a few times per week.

It really drives me crazy that none of them have any type of email confirmation before accepting an email address as valid.

Re:DMARC required by Gmail and Yahoo from Feb 2024 by Brybry on Wednesday January 10, 2024 @05:08AM (#38938457)
Because many people are not great at entering their email addresses correctly and many sites don't require any sort of address verification/confirmation.

If you have a common word or common name email address at a big email provider then you almost certainly are getting: password reset emails, billing invoices/order confirmations, tax info, childcare/education notices, medical appointment confirmations, local government notices, business conversations, wedding invitations, etc.

All legitimate and not spam but intended for a different recipient.

Re:DMARC required by Gmail and Yahoo from Feb 2024 by JelteF on Wednesday January 10, 2024 @04:54AM (#38938365)
Someone signing up with a wrong email
Re:DMARC required by Gmail and Yahoo from Feb 2024 by jacobr1 on Wednesday January 10, 2024 @10:08AM (#38939684)
Another source that are common are emails entered in on physical point of sale devices
Re:DMARC required by Gmail and Yahoo from Feb 2024 by mgkimsal on Wednesday January 10, 2024 @11:30AM (#38940349)
my wife gets these regularly. there's a few people in the UK (we're in the US) that have similar gmail addresses as hers, and use her email address often. she'll get restaurant reservation notices, dr appt confirmations, tv repair schedule confirmations, delivery notices, etc. She's called the vendors a couple of times, and also called the people directly a a couple times. "You've entered your email wrong, please stop using my email".

One person, one time, understood the situation, thanked her, and updated things. And a year later, we got email for them. There's lots of mischief we could get up to, if so inclined, but we're not like that.

Someone last year accused her of 'hacking' in to their computer and stealing emails, so she's basically given up. But these people are missing their dr appointments, delivery change notifications, etc. And by 'these people', I'm meaning - it's perhaps 4 other people with slight variations of the same spelling.

Re:DMARC required by Gmail and Yahoo from Feb 2024 by dharmab on Wednesday January 10, 2024 @01:18PM (#38941464)
This is a frequent occurrence for anyone with a common name.

https://xkcd.com/1279

Re:DMARC required by Gmail and Yahoo from Feb 2024 by Semaphor on Wednesday January 10, 2024 @03:51AM (#38937886)
Lack of opt-in into those will have me keep marking those as spam. Just like those US political newsletters that also don’t feel like they need to verify mails.
Re:DMARC required by Gmail and Yahoo from Feb 2024 by josephg on Wednesday January 10, 2024 @05:53AM (#38938828)
US political emails are even more annoying when you aren’t American. I flag all that stuff as spam without hesitation. If you do that, I hope your entire domain ends up flagged as spam.
Re:DMARC required by Gmail and Yahoo from Feb 2024 by tomjen3 on Wednesday January 10, 2024 @12:55PM (#38941194)
I had the idea to do a 1 dollar donation and then see the campaign getting flagged for illegal campaign contributions, but that is probably illegal for me as well.

(non-us based not us citizen)