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Re:SEC has not approved Bitcoin ETFs [fixed] by moose_man on Tuesday January 09, 2024 @05:33PM (#38933235)
Crypto is a scam (including Bitcoin) anybody treating it otherwise is overly credulous or in on the scam. Maybe it started out with better intentions but it is irredeemable.
Re:SEC has not approved Bitcoin ETFs [fixed] by mrb on Tuesday January 09, 2024 @06:32PM (#38933904)
Cryptocurrency, when used as intended, is pretty boring. Send funds from A to B. Done. yawn. You won't see headlines about it. The news that make it to your eyeballs are always sensational: fraud, crime, scams, etc. So if your exposure to crypto is only through the media, as opposed to actually using it yourself, it is logical for you to associate crypto with fraud.
Re:SEC has not approved Bitcoin ETFs [fixed] by eli on Tuesday January 09, 2024 @06:36PM (#38933956)
it’s also not a particularly good way to send money from one person to another
Re:SEC has not approved Bitcoin ETFs [fixed] by colecut on Tuesday January 09, 2024 @06:45PM (#38934030)
It's absolutely the fastest way to send larger sums of money.
Re:SEC has not approved Bitcoin ETFs [fixed] by eli on Tuesday January 09, 2024 @06:57PM (#38934140)
1) that’s very rarely the most important feature to me and 2) no it isn’t. Moving crypto around is fast but I don’t want crypto, I want money I can spend. USD -> crypto -> USD is not fast. There are faster ways to send money you can’t spend.
Re:SEC has not approved Bitcoin ETFs [fixed] by alchemist1e9 on Tuesday January 09, 2024 @07:27PM (#38934437)
I have a crypto debit card I can fund as needed and spend anywhere. In fact for me it’s faster and easier than any bank. It can be sent to anyone in the world and with a stack of a few different crypto debit cards can be spent immediately in pretty much any country in the world with their local currency. Yes currently the exchange fees are not great on those cards for exchanging to fiat, but the trend is down and improving.
Re:SEC has not approved Bitcoin ETFs [fixed] by BolexNOLA on Tuesday January 16, 2024 @01:59PM (#39017319)
If you’re using a crypto debit card than you’re layering the cost of a standard bank transaction on top of the cost of crypto. That just sounds like extra steps to do what I just did with my debit card at the convenience store 5min ago - which took seconds as well and required no steps to convert currency or load up from a wallet/exchange. I’m just not entirely sure what using your crypto debit card accomplished beside spending a currency that takes more work to utilize.
Re:SEC has not approved Bitcoin ETFs [fixed] by alchemist1e9 on Sunday January 21, 2024 @04:42PM (#39083378)
I have no counterparty risk, no confiscation risk. There are no extra steps, I don’t understand what you mean, moving funds to a bank or debit card at a convenience store is massively more complicated.

I open a wallet app and the paypal app, copy the deposit address from paypal to the clipboard, paste into the wallet, type the amount, hit send. 5 seconds later paypal receives it. With one button I swap any portion of it to USD on the paypal app. I do this in large enough amounts so the crypto TX fees are insignificant to get into paypal, and the conversion fees are also small.

Any extra fees are more than covered by the long term appreciation of the Bitcoin, which will obviously continue as governments worldwide are drunk of their own power to print.

Re:SEC has not approved Bitcoin ETFs [fixed] by yieldcrv on Tuesday January 09, 2024 @11:20PM (#38936107)
one thing that's important to understand is that your experience is very different from someone that already has crypto, and earns crypto. for you, you have to go buy crypto first, and you won't do that. for someone that already has an inventory of crypto, its just get cash as needed.

for them its just crypto -> USD which is very fast. for me, in the US as a US citizen, that is 2 minutes up to $25,000. from a personal crypto wallet, to the exchange, to my bank or brokerage account. beyond $25,000 it is 15 minutes to 2 hours via domestic wire transfer.

so one likely unreported aspect of crypto is that it likely has reduced international wire transfers, and cross border transfers that are prone to error and erroneous reviews and holdups

for about a decade now I have paid people in other countries in crypto. and been paid in crypto from some revenue sources. and we both liquidated as domestic transfers in our local countries. specifically because we didn't want to bother with international bank issues and time delays.

even hedge fund and private equity fund administrators that are more competitive allow in-kind investment of new limited partners in crypto, for many years now

the other thing thats important to understand is that there is a growing group that doesn't want "money they can spend" because they are liquid. they can buy goods, services, invest, day trade, passive income all in crypto within the crypto ecosystem. and for other things they can get the cash when they need it, or simply use a debit card that is custodying their crypto and representing it as the local fiat currency

but truthfully, going from USD -> crypto is fast too. if you're a US citizen you just need to use wire transfers to the exchange. SEPA region can also do same day settlement.

your user story and assumptions are really antiquated and don't represent what's been happening for at least 10 years now. if it doesn't apply to you then thats fine and move on

Re:SEC has not approved Bitcoin ETFs [fixed] by lr4444lr on Tuesday January 09, 2024 @07:27PM (#38934446)
Why would I ever want to send a large sum of money fast? The larger the amount, the more concerned I am about fraud, and want checks in place.
Re:SEC has not approved Bitcoin ETFs [fixed] by inhumantsar on Tuesday January 09, 2024 @07:03PM (#38934204)
and cheapest, especially overseas.

but I sincerely doubt the average western crypto hater has ever had to deal with western union or some remittance company taking 30%+ in fees.

Re:SEC has not approved Bitcoin ETFs [fixed] by eli on Tuesday January 09, 2024 @07:18PM (#38934338)
I recently used Wise (formerly transferwise) to send money to someone in Pakistan. It was about $10 to send $1000USD. The exchange rates are competitive too. And the recipient is guaranteed to get the correct amount in their destination currency. It even has some degree of fraud protection and customer support baked in.

What’s the crypto solution that beats that?

Re:SEC has not approved Bitcoin ETFs [fixed] by vkou on Tuesday January 09, 2024 @07:17PM (#38934331)
Western Union takes 30%+ fees from you? Exactly how much money are you transmitting through them? 5 bucks?
Re:SEC has not approved Bitcoin ETFs [fixed] by barnabee on Tuesday January 09, 2024 @06:22PM (#38933791)
It’s more important to have an unstoppable digital store of value than to stop people getting scammed.

Sure would be nice to have fewer scammers, and we should try. I, too, detest many of the actors in the space, the whole number-go-up get-rich-quick culture, and much more.

But it’s a sideshow. The reality is I’m not giving up digital assets I completely control (preferably private ones) any more than I’m giving up strong encryption, e2e encrypted comms, or the right to run whatever software I like on my computers. I’m not the only one.

It’s really irrelevant if you or anyone else considers it irredeemable. What does that even mean? There’s not even a single coherent “it” to be irredeemable.

Re:SEC has not approved Bitcoin ETFs [fixed] by __MatrixMan__ on Tuesday January 09, 2024 @07:13PM (#38934305)
What makes you think that the kids of tomorrow are going to give a damn about today's notions of what's valuable? Using an unstoppable ledger doesn't make the underlying values any more legitimate than they were before.

I do think that creating a censorship resistant place for data is more important than preventing people from being scammed, but when I think about what ought to go there, I come up with nothing so status-quo-preserving as abstractions that ensure the continuity of asset ownership. It's like you hate banks so much that you went and built one just to show-em.

Re:SEC has not approved Bitcoin ETFs [fixed] by dnissley on Tuesday January 09, 2024 @07:21PM (#38934377)
> What makes you think that the kids of tomorrow are going to give a damn about today's notions of what's valuable?

I mean, on a long enough time scale, they won't :) Same with USD, other currencies, or any given stock or bond. There are no guarantees. That applies doubly to crypto assets.

Re:SEC has not approved Bitcoin ETFs [fixed] by barnabee on Thursday January 11, 2024 @06:43AM (#38950942)
> What makes you think that the kids of tomorrow are going to give a damn about today's notions of what's valuable?

Why would this change my assertions?

In any case there are a myriad socio-political views and values represented in blockchain/“crypto” projects. It’s not all hypercapitalist libertarians…

Re:SEC has not approved Bitcoin ETFs [fixed] by moose_man on Tuesday January 09, 2024 @06:25PM (#38933814)
By "it" I mean the scam ridden shell of what was once cryptocurrency. The parasite has consumed the host.
Re:SEC has not approved Bitcoin ETFs [fixed] by barnabee on Thursday January 11, 2024 @06:34AM (#38950876)
Not really, you just have to look a bit harder.

Perhaps a greater percentage of the people, projects, and attention are part of the “parasite” as you put it, but that was my point: while it is bad, and something we should work to minimise, it’s may be a price we have to pay for something that at its core is very important.

Re:SEC has not approved Bitcoin ETFs [fixed] by jd3 on Tuesday January 09, 2024 @06:55PM (#38934123)
I couldn't believe my eyes when I first stumbled upon https://dci.mit.edu/
Re:SEC has not approved Bitcoin ETFs [fixed] by __MatrixMan__ on Tuesday January 09, 2024 @07:21PM (#38934379)
Re:SEC has not approved Bitcoin ETFs [fixed] by l0ng1nu5 on Tuesday January 09, 2024 @07:19PM (#38934353)
Fiat currency is a scam (including the USD) anybody treating it otherwise is overly credulous or in on the scam. Maybe it started out with better intentions but it is irredeemable. reply
Re:SEC has not approved Bitcoin ETFs [fixed] by cft on Tuesday January 09, 2024 @05:58PM (#38933527)
And so is economic growth by printing USDs. Let's see which one collapses first.
Re:SEC has not approved Bitcoin ETFs [fixed] by moose_man on Tuesday January 09, 2024 @06:02PM (#38933579)
I'm not sure if you're betting on the collapse of the USD, the collapse of economic growth or the collapse of the US economy.
Re:SEC has not approved Bitcoin ETFs [fixed] by alchemist1e9 on Tuesday January 09, 2024 @07:42PM (#38934585)
For discussion purposed just a few historical fiat currencies, since your confidence in USD seems a bit overblown, especially for a currency whose issuer is now spending more on interest payments than their military, an indicator of possible future instability as a store of value.

1. German Weimar Republic (Germany) - The German Mark, introduced in 1924 after World War I, was originally intended to replace the hyperinflated German Papiermark. However, the Great Depression and military reparations led to massive deficit spending, resulting in hyperinflation starting around 1921. By 1923, one US dollar equaled approximately 4.2 trillion Reichsmarks.

2. French Revolutionary Franc (France) - After the French Revolution in the late 18th century, France's new revolutionary government issued the assignats, which were paper money used as part of a monetary reform program. Initially, these notes held value due to their being backed by goods such as grain; however, excessive printing eventually led to severe hyperinflation between 1796 and 1797, where prices rose exponentially.

3. Hungarian Pengő (Hungary) - Introduced in 1946, the Hungarian pengő suffered from rampant inflation due to economic mismanagement and Marshall Plan aid exchange rates. Between 1945 and 1946, the exchange rate for one US dollar was set at HUF 52, but due to various factors, including nationalization, hyperinflation reached an estimated 44 quadrillions to the US dollar by 1946.

4. Zimbabwean Dollar (Zimbabwe) - Succeeding the British colonial Rhodesian dollar, Zimbabwe adopted its own fiat currency, the Zimbabwean dollar, upon independence in 1980. Hyperinflation began in the mid-1970s, and by November 2004, it had become virtually worthless, forcing the country to abandon it.

5. Mexican Peso (Mexico) - Following the Mexican-American war, Mexico faced significant debt. To finance the national debt, a silver peso coin was minted. Despite its initial value, hyperinflation struck, and by the late 19th century, the Mexican peso became almost worthless. Numerous attempts at currency stabilization failed until the introduction of the "El Banco" gold standard in 1914.

Re:SEC has not approved Bitcoin ETFs [fixed] by xenospn on Tuesday January 09, 2024 @06:24PM (#38933806)
This is the only correct interpretation of the crypto ecosystem. There are no positives.
Re:SEC has not approved Bitcoin ETFs [fixed] by alchemist1e9 on Tuesday January 09, 2024 @07:20PM (#38934361)
Yes yes. I’m sure 15 years later you will be saying the same thing even when Bitcoin is showing up on reserve holdings of major central banks. I believe Bitcoin is around the 16th largest currency in the world today and it’s daily transaction volume indicates extensive real world use. But don’t worry you can keep ranting about how Bitcoin is a scam, you or others like you were 10 years ago, and will be in another 10 years. I have a hunch it’s a phenomenon somehow related to how socialists are still ranting about socialism 200 years now, the most failed ideas in human history, yet according to them never been done “correctly”, this is some collectivist mindset equivalent in reverse, ranting about how big a failure one of the most successful ideas in human history is.
Re:SEC has not approved Bitcoin ETFs [fixed] by niceice on Tuesday January 09, 2024 @06:04PM (#38933605)
Why do you say Bitcoin is a scam?

It rather seems like the opposite; an altruistic gift to humanity. An anonymous programmer produced a decentralized currency that solved the double spend problem and didn't even sell his coins.

Re:SEC has not approved Bitcoin ETFs [fixed] by moose_man on Tuesday January 09, 2024 @06:05PM (#38933620)
This is either expert level trolling or =|
Re:SEC has not approved Bitcoin ETFs [fixed] by spankalee on Tuesday January 09, 2024 @06:32PM (#38933901)
It's a Ponzi scheme, just distributed.
Re:SEC has not approved Bitcoin ETFs [fixed] by spywaregorilla on Tuesday January 09, 2024 @06:09PM (#38933663)
he didn't sell his coins in that wallet >_>