Gaza is still militarily occupied. Israel controls the flow of goods and people, prevents Gazans from leaving the territory, uses violence and collective punishment against the civilian population, and discriminates against Palestinians.
> For decades they fired rockets on Israel civilians
for decades, the people of Gaza have been subject to apartheid. i don't agree with violence but claiming that Israel has the moral high ground here is ridiculous considering that Palestinian civilians have been terrorized since 1948.
> even took over a thousand of hostages including children
"An estimated 10,000 Palestinian children have been held in military detention over the past 20 years, with Save the Children noting that they are "the only children in the world who are systematically prosecuted in military courts.'"
yes, taking children as hostages is horrible. but your focus shows your bias and leads me to believe that you're not arguing in good faith.
> their only hope for freedom is the total and utter destruction of Hamas‘ network of terrorists.
we know this is absolutely false because this ethic cleansing predates the creation of Hamas. Israel was in fact involved in the creation of Hamas and supported it in the early days as a way to prevent the left-wing PLO from taking power.
in short, your "argument" completely ignores history and the context of this conflict.
Of course, Israel protects its border against a region that keeps sending assassins and rockets. You simply can not establish an open border if you want to control the smuggling of weapons and suicide bombers! That may create hardships for Gaza civilians working in Israel but you cannot blame Israel for that.
> for decades, the people of Gaza have been subject to apartheid
No. For decades Palestine‘s politics is driven by hatred of Jews and not love for their own children. Israelis would love to live in peace with their neighbors (and for some of them they do). But as long Palestinian politicians aim for the eradication of all Jews in the Middle East there can never be peace.
> „An estimated 10,000 Palestinian children have been held in military detention“
Because Hamas have strapped bomb belts around their children!
> we know this is absolutely false because this ethic cleansing predates the creation of Hamas.
„Ethnic cleansing“? Really? What do you think what Hamas would do to the Israeli people if it were successful in their aim to „destroy Israel“? If Israel wanted to „clean“ Gaza from Palestinian people they would have done air raids around the clock. Instead they sent ground forces to try to minimize civilian casualties. Unfortunately, it’s very difficult to target Hamas fighters if their hide in schools and hospitals …
> leads me to believe that you're not arguing in good faith
I think you make it yourself way too easy and chose to conveniently side with your perceived „underdog“ — while the underdog happens to be a wolf claiming to fight for freedom of the people of Palestine while in fact what they do is rob Gaza from any perspective of sustainable peace.
I am not saying you should uncritically endorse everything what the state of Israel does but you should be stepping back for a moment and reconsider your uncritical sympathy for the devil.
yes, you can! Israel created and enforces the apartheid state that all Palestinians suffer under. again, you're ignoring history.
> For decades Palestine‘s politics is driven by hatred of Jews and not love for their own children
this is not a religious war. jews co-existed with muslims in palestine before israel existed. to reduce this entire conflict down to "Palestinians are so anti-semetic that they hate jews more than they love their own children" is truly insulting to not only the Palestinian people, but to the intelligence of whoever you spout this to. and AGAIN, complete ignorance of history.
> Israelis would love to live in peace with their neighbors
their "neighbors" are the people they're oppressing, whose people they are murdering, whose land they're stealing.
yes, ethnic cleansing. i'm sorry that you've been brainwashed with so much propaganda that you believe that every hospital in gaza in a hamas command center, but the rest of the world can easily see through this. see also: the UN vote.
israel _is_ doing raids around the clock. they've killed over 20,000 people.
> I think you make it yourself way too easy and chose to conveniently side with your perceived „underdog“
none of this is "easy" or "convenient". it's horrific to witness atrocities being committed daily, to experience anti-Arab racism, to be called a sympathizer with the devil for advocating for the lives of innocent civilians, and to worry that doing so can and will get you fired and blacklisted.
the "underdog" is Palestinians, not Hamas. your inability to separate the two is your own failure. i side with oppressed people and liberation movements, not settlers and colonial states.
I think you tried to engage in goal-post moving, by arguing that Israel has not "occupied" Gaza following the "disengagement", which is not directly tied to the "Gulag" label you were disagreeing with. While I think the claim that Israel was not occupying Gaza during this period is literally true, this is only because international legal definitions of occupation have multiple specific requirements. Though Israel was not stationing soldiers inside the territory, and was not running a sole government in the territory, it has still had enormous control. Imposing a blockade by sea, air and land for years on end, and continuously imprisoning Palestinians without charge or trial, is technically not "occupation", but it is an enormous projection of state force over a territory that Israel claimed was not in its control. Perhaps it's not "occupation" as defined in international law -- fine. So let's come up with a new word for it, but continue to recognize it as abusive.
In that context, talking about the rights of women and gays inside Gaza seems like bad faith whataboutism; if Israel cared about their rights and equality, it could let women and queer people living in Gaza leave.
You conveniently ignore why Israel has been controlling Gaza’s borders. Because it is ruled by Hamas since 2007 misusing their power to build up an armed terrorist origanization instead of a country. And they keep attacking Israel’s territory. If Israel had established an open border policy (which they had when they were actually occupying Gaza) last year‘s massacre would have happened already years back.
I keep getting criticized for „ignoring history“ but your post is a very good example how the self-proclaimed supporters of Palestinians, here, are constantly engaging in cherry-picking the historical facts trying to win their arguments. Israel haters should really step back for a moment at least and consider who they are supporting and what cause.
I have no objections to Israel trying to control the flow of dangerous individuals and materiel across its own land. Why should it have a right to block sea and air access? Why should it stop the flow of ordinary goods? Nowhere have I recommended open borders; there are lots of options between open borders and the blockade system.
I'm not actually a supporter of Palestinians. You'll note that I started this sub thread arguing that the UN resolution talking about right of a people to self-determination doesn't seem coherent. But I am a supporter of human rights, and this is a situation in which there seem to be many serious violations.
Since then Hamas established a brutal dictatorship taking all of the inhabitants of Gaza as hostages. Freedom of speech? Nope. Women‘s rights? Forget it. Gay rights? Of course not. Taxes and international monetary support was side channeled to establish an underground military force using hospitals and schools als command centers. For decades they fired rockets on Israel civilians and still Israel let them going on. Until they crossed the border last year killing hundreds of civilians and even took over a thousand of hostages including children.
When you insist Gaza being „Israel‘s gulag camp“ you are being delusional, put yourself far outside any civilized discourse and make yourself essentially a supporter of a truly criminal and violent gang.
I wish Gaza people all the best but their only hope for freedom is the total and utter destruction of Hamas‘ network of terrorists.