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Re:Constellations are younger than continents by p-o on Monday December 25, 2023 @06:47AM (#38761836)
These kind of facts always blow my mind. For instance, the Sun orbits the milky way once every 212m years.

That means that if the sun existed from the big bang to now, it would have only done ~63 complete revolutions around Sagittarius A*. If you account for the Milky Way's creation, that number gets even lower. I'm no expert, so maybe this makes sense to someone who knows more about this, but it definitively feel weird to me.

Re:Constellations are younger than continents by mihaitodor on Monday December 25, 2023 @07:34AM (#38762108)
I wondered the same thing and I asked Sean Carroll about it [1]. He didn’t go into much detail, but here is his answer:

> I guess my only insight is, I'm not sure why you relate the number of revolutions that the Milky Way has made to its complex and symmetric structure. The spiral arms that you see in a galaxy like the Milky Way do not rigidly rotate with it, they are more like... This is complicated, but they are more like regions where star formation is going on, and therefore the galaxy is brighter rather than regions where there's more density or anything like that. So if you're worrying how the spiral structure forms. It can form pretty easily in one or two revolutions, I don't see why it would take even 68, much less, but need more than that.

[1] https://www.preposterousuniverse.com/podcast/2023/10/09/ama-...

Re:Constellations are younger than continents by firebot on Monday December 25, 2023 @10:38AM (#38763456)
Problem with Sean and most cosmologists is they are proliferate regurgitates with little independent thought.
Re:Constellations are younger than continents by ben_w on Monday December 25, 2023 @03:09PM (#38765674)
Even before LLMs were dismissed as "stochastic parrots" (and even more so since then), I find myself noticing when people dismiss the intellectual capacity of entire groups.

"Mickey Mouse degrees", https://xkcd.com/793/, the attitude displayed by the bully in "Zero for Conduct" and similar IRL dismissals of the entire ME area in the post 9/11 discourse, mid-Brexit politicians saying the country had had enough of experts, some of my fist girlfriends' anecdotes from her childhood, town v gown, …

Re:Constellations are younger than continents by firebot on Monday December 25, 2023 @05:13PM (#38766658)
I don't follow.
Re:Constellations are younger than continents by ben_w on Monday December 25, 2023 @05:25PM (#38766783)
You, like all my examples, are blithely dismissing everyone who does understand a subject that you don't understand.
Re:Constellations are younger than continents by ryanklee on Monday December 25, 2023 @04:10PM (#38766137)
I really don't understand how you can put forth a criticism like this and be so vague at the same time. It really undermines your credibility. Be specific or why bother.
Re:Constellations are younger than continents by firebot on Monday December 25, 2023 @05:10PM (#38766634)
I have no credibility.

Sean jumps on the hype train all day long. I'm skeptical. I don't think this illustrious dark matter or big bang mean anything. So it's like that telephone game where Sean is the last person and gets to tell you what the first person said and he's always very excited but baseless. Really do like his energy. I just don't think he's much of an independent thinker.

Re:Constellations are younger than continents by wholinator2 on Monday December 25, 2023 @07:42PM (#38767831)
Well, as someone with a shred of credibility, he really does have strong theoretical evidence for the things he's saying. The difficulty here is that theoretical physics is really fucking hard. Way too hard to distill down into a paragraph. I'm sure the man could do a lecture series on star formation in spiral galaxies to convince you but you're going to need a bachelor's at minimum to even start that.

I think he's easy to dismiss because much of his exposition deals in philosophical physics, it's really his specialty. There's levels of solidity. Experimental physics is reality. Theoretical physics is an explanation of reality, sometimes attempting to extend to predict the next experiment. Philosophical physics takes theoretical tools and expands them to explain everything in the Universe, including the Hard questions. I don't think it's a problem that they do it, someone should be thinking of this stuff. Do you have much experience with theoretical physics or cosmology. I have some and the math really helps make these things comprehensible and reasonable. Theoretical physics without math is indeed just continuous excited, but baseless assertions. The math fixes this

Re:Constellations are younger than continents by firebot on Tuesday December 26, 2023 @08:58PM (#38778252)
I don't believe you.

I prefer alternative theories. Plasma physics. Electric universe models.

There's Gareth Samuel on YouTube, See The Pattern. He just explores various theories. Treats them as merely theories (instead of facts) and I like that approach. It's very historic and really fleshes out ideas. Then you got the Lerner himself, author of The Big Bang Never Happened, which I think has been overwhelmingly falsified so you mean you can take Sean and his amazing fantastic firework singularity that blew up from a dimensionless point and yeah blah blah blah blah blah inflation blah blah blah acceleration blah blah blah and it makes no fucking sense whatsoever.

I'm really good at math. At least compared to most people. I'm 38 and really only started questioning the big bang maybe in the last decade, and then I found Eric Lerner and well, now I can firmly say the big bang never happened.

Re:Constellations are younger than continents by gitaarik on Thursday December 28, 2023 @01:59AM (#38790822)
You might want to be careful with accepting alternative theories. They can sound very convincing when you don't understand the subject very well. Often people make illogical connections that sound nice but are either in conflict with other observations or theories, or are simply incorrect but just sound logical on the surface.

Professor Dave Explains has a lot of scientific debunking videos where he thoroughly discusses these kind of popular alternative theories. For example about the electric universe: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T9q-v4lBGuw&t=0s

Re:Constellations are younger than continents by gitaarik on Thursday December 28, 2023 @02:23AM (#38790932)
Btw, the big bang theory is not something personal from Sean Carroll. He might talk about it (a lot), but a lot of scientists talk about it, and it's a theory that has evolved over the last 100 years by thousands of scientists around the world. So in that sense it's not really "Sean" against another guy with an alternative theory. No it's 100 years of worldwide collaborative science research.

And yes it is an incomplete theory, like all the theories we currently have. But it is currently the theory that matches our observations in experiments the closest.

It could always be that we're on the wrong path, and that a completely other paradigm is necessary. And it is good to be open to such posibilities and to think about it. But as long as an alternative theory doesn't do a better job at predicting the observations we get in experiments, you can't dismiss the current theory.

Re:Constellations are younger than continents by ryanklee on Friday December 29, 2023 @03:01PM (#38809531)
> now I can firmly say the big bang never happened.

You really can't. And aren't. If you could, you would be, and people with credibility would be listening and taking you seriously. They would have to, because seriously composed arguments aren't ignorable by individuals who understand and care about the subject matter.

This is the purpose of mainstream scientific work: to take serious arguments seriously and to dispense with those that don't hold up.

Being a contrarian with crackpot theories is far easier, since the only people listening are people who don't know what they are talking about, and so all you get is false validation in response to any output.

In general, if a theory isn't endorsed by professionals in a field, it's because the theory is wrong.

Re:Constellations are younger than continents by bazoom42 on Tuesday December 26, 2023 @07:38AM (#38771269)
They probably adhere to some crackpot theory. The focus on “independent thought” as opposed to facts point in that direction. Don’t bother.
Re:Constellations are younger than continents by gitaarik on Wednesday December 27, 2023 @01:48AM (#38779682)
I think your story is about the spiral structure of the milky way, whereas the parent is about the amount of revolutions of our solar system around the milky way. So 2 different things I think. That might be the confusion here.

Regarding the spiral arms: the arms itself do not really move, but stars move through the arms. The arms contain a lot of gas and when stars move through them, they can collect more gas and result in supernovas creating new stars.

Re:Constellations are younger than continents by mihaitodor on Wednesday December 27, 2023 @01:47PM (#38785110)
Fair enough, it's a bit of a tangent. Thanks for the extra insight! I kinda' assumed that stars wouldn't move across a galaxy, like from one arm to another. I'll have to look into that.
Re:Constellations are younger than continents by gitaarik on Thursday December 28, 2023 @01:53PM (#38797059)
Yes, stars move through the arms, and circle around the center of the galaxy. The arms actually also "move", but not in the way you would maybe expect. They are actually density waves - areas of greater density of gas & dust, similar to a traffic jam on a highway. These waves also "move" along with the gas & dust. But this wave-movement is illusory, because they are formed by these traffic jams.

The stars move through these waves (traffic jams), and in these high density areas new star formation and supernovas happens mostly (because there is more stuff to collect). The stars move through the gas & dust faster than the gas & dust themselves, because the stars are more massive and need more velocity to stay in stable orbit. The illusory movement of the waves is also slower than the stars, because the illusory waves move as slow as the dust & gas that forms them, and the stars are faster.

Apart from that, you also have dark matter which influences the rotation speed of objects based on it's distance from the galaxy center. It causes objects at the end of the spiral arms of the galaxy to rotate at the same speed as the ones close to the center, or anywhere. That is a mysterious area, and actually caused the requirement of dark matter into the equation. Because in Einstein's relativity theory, objects with same mass that are farther away from the galaxy center, need to move slower to have a stable orbit, which is the case in our solar system and other solar systems we observe. But in galaxies the case seems to be different. That is why dark matter was introduced, and makes it more complicated.

Re:Constellations are younger than continents by mihaitodor on Thursday December 28, 2023 @03:48PM (#38798395)
That's very interesting! Thank you again for the extra insight!
Re:Constellations are younger than continents by gitaarik on Friday December 29, 2023 @12:48PM (#38807890)
Thanks. This discussion also triggered me to research some more about this subject. This video also gives a good insight: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBU9Luc4NuM
Re:Constellations are younger than continents by mihaitodor on Sunday December 31, 2023 @11:31AM (#38825202)
Nice find! That also gave me some more rabbit holes to dig through :)
Re:Constellations are younger than continents by gattr on Monday December 25, 2023 @10:07AM (#38763178)
Another fun fact: there are more trees on Earth (3×10¹²) [1] than stars in the Milky Way (1-4×10¹¹).

[1] "Mapping tree density at a global scale" https://www.nature.com/articles/nature14967

Re:Constellations are younger than continents by tamimio on Monday December 25, 2023 @12:01PM (#38764143)
Have another fact since we are talking about trees, wood is the rarest element in the universe, even more rare than diamonds, in fact, wood can only be found on earth! A piece of me dies every time I see someone cutting a tree for useless reasons.
Re:Constellations are younger than continents by Solvency on Monday December 25, 2023 @01:07PM (#38764672)
Wood isn't an element?
Re:Constellations are younger than continents by explaininjs on Monday December 25, 2023 @02:52PM (#38765539)
Do you think cutting a tree annihilates the wood?
Re:Constellations are younger than continents by wholinator2 on Monday December 25, 2023 @07:32PM (#38767768)
Yeah sorry to be kinda pedantic but wood is not an element, it's just a material. And if we're talking rarity of materials there are undoubtedly much much rarer materials, like LK99 for instance.

In fact, even if we're talking elements themselves, there are elements with halflives of picoseconds. I can't know for sure but i'd bet those elements are more rare than wood. And since I'm extending the analogy, how do we know wood is the rarest? We can't really get a good look at exoplanets yet, they're still just fuzzy balls to us like pluto used to be. Trees could be an evolutionary essential step.

Anyways, it's a nice thought but could probably be phrased in a way to defeat pedants like me. Merry Christmas <3

Re:Constellations are younger than continents by dataflow on Monday December 25, 2023 @10:35AM (#38763422)
That fact sounds like it will become fiction very very soon. :\
Re:Constellations are younger than continents by fukpaywalls2 on Monday December 25, 2023 @12:19PM (#38764309)
On the postive side, there's probably more microplastics in our oceans than there are stars in all of the galaxies summed together.
Re:Constellations are younger than continents by sp332 on Monday December 25, 2023 @06:31PM (#38767359)
Ocean microplastics were probably overestimated. https://phys.org/news/2023-08-plastic-litter-oceans-overesti... Most plastic in the oceans is in larger chunks… so far anyway.
Re:Constellations are younger than continents by joshuahedlund on Monday December 25, 2023 @06:19PM (#38767281)
Maybe not. Deforestation rates peaked in the 80’s

https://ourworldindata.org/global-deforestation-peak

Re:Constellations are younger than continents by ben_w on Monday December 25, 2023 @02:48PM (#38765510)
Depends on your definition of "tree".

My follow-up fun fact is that even though "tree", like "fish", is a term of common parlance, there is no universally recognised and precise definition of the category, either botanically or in common language.

Re:Constellations are younger than continents by a_gnostic on Monday December 25, 2023 @06:36PM (#38767392)
What's a tree?

In botany, a tree is a perennial plant with an elongated stem, or trunk, usually supporting branches and leaves. In some usages, the definition of a tree may be narrower, including only woody plants with secondary growth, plants that are usable as lumber or plants above a specified height.

In the words of Justice Potter Stewart: "I know it when I see it." (1964)

Re:Constellations are younger than continents by defaultcompany on Monday December 25, 2023 @10:47AM (#38763532)
Agreed. Another surprising one to me is that the earth itself has been around for about 1/3 the age of the universe. I always assumed that the timescale of the universe was vastly longer than the life of the earth.
Re:Constellations are younger than continents by k7sune on Monday December 25, 2023 @11:10AM (#38763712)
Wow it’s amazing that we could somehow time the orbit period.