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Re:The end of retirement by bee_rider on Sunday December 24, 2023 @10:06AM (#38753906)
Retirement seems like a pretty crucial process in the economy. If we set things up so that people can’t retire, that will slow down the process of getting the next generation into their positions.

I do know some folks who have, instead, semi-retired (go in one or two days a week). People at the end of their careers have lots of experience to pass on. And it seems to keep them active and healthy. I wonder why we haven’t seen a growth in 1-2 day a week mentorship roles.

Re:The end of retirement by pc86 on Sunday December 24, 2023 @10:11AM (#38753930)
> I wonder why we haven’t seen a growth in 1-2 day a week mentorship roles.

If I had to hazard a guess I would say that most people in this position feel like they should get paid 50% of their previous salary for doing 20% of the work (and limiting their scope largely to mentorship rather than IC work), and with the combined scope reduction of both time and work performed, their employers would rather pay them even less than what a strict accounting of hours worked would indicate.

Not to mention the fact that if your organization is so lop-sided that you only have experts near retirement and juniors who actually need 20% or more of their time being mentored, you're facing an existential staffing crisis.

Re:The end of retirement by ethbr1 on Sunday December 24, 2023 @10:37AM (#38754157)
It's funny that the companies I've seen do this productively all have "other justifications" for doing so.

But effectively, yes, they're keeping high-performing older talent around so some hard won lessons rub off on the youngsters.

I always thought companies should spend more time broadly categorizing employee allocation. E.g. this year you're going to be 20% mentor, 20% strategic advice, 60% IC

Everyone wears multiple hats in a healthy company, and part of the ageism problem is that the only management-visible hat is "work produced."

Re:The end of retirement by bee_rider on Sunday December 24, 2023 @10:42AM (#38754202)
Maybe we need something like a university tenure program for private businesses, haha.
Re:The end of retirement by ethbr1 on Sunday December 24, 2023 @01:32PM (#38755463)
Some companies have emeritus, but it has to be huge and tech afaik.
Re:The end of retirement by ghost-towels on Sunday December 24, 2023 @01:28PM (#38755446)
Ahh, welcome to the small boat and commercial marine industry (basically kayaks to 150’). Your last paragraph perfectly encapsulates our situation. We’ve had decades of youth going into university instead of trades, which I’m not saying is a bad thing, just we haven’t had the numbers. And we are a very niche trade so low numbers to begin with.

I work at a small trade school as the training coordinator and this is something I come up against every day. Our employers locally desperately need people but have no one to spare for training. It’s a really vicious cycle. As an example we are running a pre-employment program in January for youth. It’s a great program, 8 weeks long, the students are paid by the govt, they get employment readiness skills, tool skills, job shadow at four different businesses for a day each, and then have a two week work experience at one of the locations. The employers get paid too! Out of 18 original employers, 10 have backed out citing too busy. Yet they are all scrambling to hire people.

I’ve been in this industry for almost 30 years. I’m off the tools now because I want to support my fellow workers and have them learn the safe way to work, also my knees haha. But seriously though, we’re all struggling with way too much work and not enough people, and the experts are retiring.

Re:The end of retirement by bee_rider on Sunday December 24, 2023 @01:40PM (#38755544)
I don’t think a reduction to 20% work on the part of semi-retired employees means that the juniors need 20% of their time being mentored. Some people might just want to do full retirement, so it won’t be 100% of the former population working at 20%, and if the company is growing then presumably the next generation of employees should be larger.
Re:The end of retirement by graeme on Sunday December 24, 2023 @10:25AM (#38754060)
Have a look at a population pyramid, especially for countries without mass immigration. There isn’t much of a next generation. When people retire they become dependents. Each worker will need to support an increasing number of retirees.
Re:The end of retirement by bee_rider on Sunday December 24, 2023 @10:34AM (#38754124)
If a country has a plan to become smaller, I guess I can see why they’d need to stretch out their current workforce for a long as possible. The US, which is where I live, I think plans on growing until we find a hard barrier that we can’t power through.
Re:The end of retirement by graeme on Sunday December 24, 2023 @10:41AM (#38754192)
The US isn’t immune to this, merely better placed. Projections are that the US will move from 3 workers per retiree to 2 workers per retiree by 2050. (You can project these things pretty well as the new generation is already born.)
Re:The end of retirement by bee_rider on Sunday December 24, 2023 @10:57AM (#38754315)
You can project, but also respond; nation of immigrants and all that.
Re:The end of retirement by graeme on Sunday December 24, 2023 @12:17PM (#38754907)
That’s included in the projection.

Also there are fewer young people in the rest of the world, the birth rate has declined worldwide.

Re:The end of retirement by thfuran on Sunday December 24, 2023 @10:46AM (#38754242)
The US currently only maintains positive population growth due to immigration, and one of the two major political parties opposes immigration.
Re:The end of retirement by bee_rider on Sunday December 24, 2023 @11:18AM (#38754447)
The basic nature of the US is to always say: more, bigger. I think betting against that instinct is a bad move.
Re:The end of retirement by rorroe53 on Sunday December 24, 2023 @10:40AM (#38754186)
Well, maybe AI will replace most office jobs, at which point most of those workers can become caregivers to the old.
Re:The end of retirement by supertimor on Sunday December 24, 2023 @04:00PM (#38756806)
Man that’s bleak.
Re:The end of retirement by ketzo on Sunday December 24, 2023 @10:29AM (#38754089)
It's funny because there are careers that have figured out the kind of lower-work senior roles you're talking about -- doctors and lawyers come to mind right away, with surgeons who work 1-2 cases a week and senior partners who come in to consult for a month here and there.
Re:The end of retirement by ghaff on Sunday December 24, 2023 @10:38AM (#38754163)
And various types of consulting. I know a few semi-retired people in the IT realm who retired on the early side and still do some work on the side. The key is that you're sort of doing your own thing on your own schedule. Which doesn't describe most people at the average tech company.

Certainly for senior people there are probably one dayish a week roles that don't even have to happen every week. But now you're still essentially talking about being a consultant.

Re:The end of retirement by nytesky on Sunday December 24, 2023 @10:34AM (#38754123)
Those jobs have a fixed supply of graduates set the the Bar and AMA accrediting medical schools (and law schools but that is less clear to me, but anyways law school is very prestige based so kind of moot if a 3rd tier law school expands enrollment). Other fields have no body policing the incoming employee population.
Re:The end of retirement by mcmoor on Sunday December 24, 2023 @10:31AM (#38754103)
Well, it only make sense in aging population that doesn't have too many "next generation" anyway.
Re:The end of retirement by ofrzeta on Sunday December 24, 2023 @10:42AM (#38754203)
> I wonder why we haven’t seen a growth in 1-2 day a week mentorship roles.

It's a little secret that actually many young people don't want to be mentored nor is it in the interest of companies. In contrast to the common narrative that older people are of great value to enterprises because of their experience in reality it's much better not to make use of it but let younger people make all mistakes again (often there also a lot of newer mistakes to make because technology or some other circumstances changed).

(I am being a bit sarcastic here but there's also truth to it).

Re:The end of retirement by regurfvjtdf on Sunday December 24, 2023 @10:11AM (#38753936)
I wonder if the fixed costs associated with employing an individual make that more challenging in some regulatory environments?
Re:The end of retirement by PopAlongKid on Sunday December 24, 2023 @10:22AM (#38754028)
I'm trying to think of what those might be. Assuming you already have employees and a payroll system, I think maybe only worker's comp insurance would be considered a fixed cost. Maybe the cost of a notebook computer or other device, if required. Employees who are less than half time usually don't have to be offered retirement plan options or mandated sick leave/vacation (although here in California, it might apply at all levels, I haven't checked).

Maybe the cost of a notebook computer or other device, if required. And business cards, if anyone still uses those. What else?

edit: possibly some training costs, depending a lot on the type of job and the previous experience of the worker

Re:The end of retirement by thfuran on Sunday December 24, 2023 @10:50AM (#38754268)
Office space.
Re:The end of retirement by regurfvjtdf on Monday December 25, 2023 @12:19AM (#38760051)
Also it’s just work to hire, manage, administer another enployee. Fiddling around in Justworks one extra time per month. Creating an email address. Etc.
Re:The end of retirement by bee_rider on Sunday December 24, 2023 @10:26AM (#38754073)
It could be, and that’s a good answer to the question of why we haven’t seen it. It would be nice though, if we made it possible.
Re:The end of retirement by ghaff on Sunday December 24, 2023 @10:50AM (#38754266)
I don't think it's so much the costs as it really only makes sense for people who bring specific capabilities that aren't easily replicated and they can apply those without a lot of coordination on a fairly loose and non-intense schedule.

That just doesn't apply to the vast majority of employees.

Re:The end of retirement by drewcoo on Sunday December 24, 2023 @11:43AM (#38754647)
> If we set things up so that people can’t retire, that will slow down the process of getting the next generation into their positions.

It also slows the economic shock of depopulation. Now it won't hit until most of the non-retired people start to die.