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Re:What should we make of the return of Sigmund Freud? by DiscourseFan on Wednesday December 13, 2023 @08:35PM (#38636734)
I don't know how familiar you are with Freud, but it's not something that can be made piecemeal. The Oedipal complex is not "true" or "false," it describes the universal process of socialization that children enter into (even Aristotle said somewhere, that children begin by calling all men "dad" and all women "mom," until they learn to differentiate via naming). But the various conditions of the Oedipal complex are diverse: it boils down to, in the end, not the simple conventional "mommy, daddy, me," but a triadic formulation: the child only understands themselves as individual, insofar as they have lost the mother's affection (i.e. they're being weaned), and thereby gains an object of desire (originally, the love of the mother) which is always already lost, and a process whereby they can return to a state of pre-subjectivity i.e. where their desires would have always already been fulfilled; a return to a position whereby that affection (of the mother) can be returned, by assuming the role of whatever it is that took the object of desire away, in order to get it back, thereby gaining subjectivity in seeing themselves as that which they desire to replace. This is termed identification, which is a repression of that drive towards pre-subjectivity, a drive which Freud entitles the "death drive." For Freud, there is always something that precedes all theorizing or origination, some excess towards which desire aims--towards, precisely, a state before desiring itself--but which it never fulfills.

The Oedipal triad, therefore, is the first and most basic articulation of this drive towards death in its social function, even if it is made particular for the time and place where Freud lived, it is necessary as a part within the larger system: a part which relies on the regular function of others, like the death drive, like repression, like the unconscious. Each part of the system is defined in relation to all the others, and defined in relation to its appearance in a symbolic system and its authorization at the level of discourse; that is, at the level at which one speaks, since it is only within symbolic exchange that one first enters into a social world. One gains language through the word "mama," not because mama, the most basic, repetitive sound that any child can make, has any significance, but because the very appearance of a word that has come in place of the "actual" object of desire implies an infinite separation already from that object in its full sensuous reality: the object, once announced, is already lost, on account of the fact that it can be announced as separate from the very thing it supposedly describes. And from then on, the child is "castrated," i.e. cut off from the source of pleasure through their very entrance into the world of symbolic structures; through, more simply put, their entrance into language.

This implicates all other systems of thought, giving to all other discourses a biological, material explanation for the formation of language itself, but one which is always permanently separated from the very biological origin by that very excess towards which it aims--the drive towards death, which, for Freud, always points to a pre-animated, pre-vivified world. A world before language and the psyche that would come to describe it. So that the materiality, and the relation to the material world of every discourse, is always established as a permanent site of loss, to which (very fortunately for itself) psychoanalysis always has a method to prepare a way forward despite this loss, through the rigorous analysis of its own development.

Re:What should we make of the return of Sigmund Freud? by dragonwriter on Wednesday December 13, 2023 @08:46PM (#38636816)
> The Oedipal complex is not "true" or "false," it describes the universal process of socialization

A description of a universal process is either false (the universal process does not exist as a universal process), or false (the universal process does exist but the description is inaccurate), or true (the universal process exists and the description is accurate).

Re:What should we make of the return of Sigmund Freud? by DiscourseFan on Wednesday December 13, 2023 @10:00PM (#38637267)
It's universal only insofar as it is based on empirical evidence. Psychoanalysis always begins from empirical claims. There is nothing transcendental or purely intelligible here.
Re:What should we make of the return of Sigmund Freud? by dragonwriter on Wednesday December 13, 2023 @11:31PM (#38637800)
> It's universal only insofar as it is based on empirical evidence.

The most prominent criticism of Freud on this issue, AFAICT, seems to be that it is, in fact, not based on or supportable by empirical evidence.

Re:What should we make of the return of Sigmund Freud? by qarl on Wednesday December 13, 2023 @08:45PM (#38636806)
> I don't know how familiar you are with Freud, but it's not something that can be made piecemeal.

Hm. That seems unlikely.

Re:What should we make of the return of Sigmund Freud? by bavent on Wednesday December 13, 2023 @08:57PM (#38636874)
Care to elaborate? A four-word rebuttal to a well-written, fairly detailed response doesn't really make your case for you.
Re:What should we make of the return of Sigmund Freud? by qarl on Wednesday December 13, 2023 @09:14PM (#38636994)
Well - for one - I don't see at all how the well-written, fairly detailed response supports that initial claim.

I feel like my four-word rebuttal has as much support as did his initial statement.

Re:What should we make of the return of Sigmund Freud? by Paul-Craft on Thursday December 14, 2023 @12:12AM (#38638048)
In that case, here are two words for you: "shallow dismissal." More to the point, there's no "there" there in your comment. And, it's against the guidelines (which we all know are really "rules" here, and not actual guidelines, but that's a different post):

> Please don't post shallow dismissals, especially of other people's work. A good critical comment teaches us something.

I don't know about anyone else, but your four words taught me nothing about the subject matter.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re:What should we make of the return of Sigmund Freud? by qarl on Thursday December 14, 2023 @08:09AM (#38640916)
You're absolutely right. I'm somewhat new here, despite having an old account. I will try harder to follow the guidelines.
Re:What should we make of the return of Sigmund Freud? by DiscourseFan on Wednesday December 13, 2023 @10:01PM (#38637281)
>I feel like my four-word rebuttal has as much support as did his initial statement.

You know what they say: "facts don't care about your feelings."

Re:What should we make of the return of Sigmund Freud? by qarl on Wednesday December 13, 2023 @10:07PM (#38637315)
I'd love to hear you explain how your essay supports the statement that Freud's ideas "not something that can be made piecemeal."

As a single example, I'm pretty happy with his concept of psychological projection, despite the fact that I'm pretty critical of his ideas on cocaine. How does your essay show my position here is untenable?

Re:What should we make of the return of Sigmund Freud? by DiscourseFan on Wednesday December 13, 2023 @10:39PM (#38637484)
I mean I can see where you're coming from, even if it's a bad example (derivatives of cocaine are extremely common today in medicine--procaine, lidocaine, etc.--but Freud worked with what he had at the time). Though its true that the entire psychological apparatus stands behind everything anyone ever says, writes, signs, for Freud, so it's impossible to read one part separated from any other, or to value one part more than another absolutely, instead of seeing it instead in a complex network of interwoven--as the French say--signifiers.

What your valuation (of projection over the use of cocaine in medical treatment) describes has more to do with the social and psychological economy from which you have received Freud as a body of texts and paratexts, than anything about Freud as a total system. What I've argued prior is that on account of the way Freud constructs psychoanalysis, and sets psychoanalysis as the means by which one can track their own place in discourse, means that everything is mediated psychologically, and therefore everything written by an author must be connected for that author. To take Freud, then, not as Freud as such, but as Freud as a body of disconnected texts, would be a disingenuous reading: still, possible, but not at that point Freudian. At that point, you'd be developing your own theory with reference to Freud.

Re:What should we make of the return of Sigmund Freud? by qarl on Wednesday December 13, 2023 @10:49PM (#38637539)
I'd still love hear you explain how your essay supports the statement that Freud's ideas "not something that can be made piecemeal."

This new essay seems to be completely unrelated to the original essay.

Re:What should we make of the return of Sigmund Freud? by philosopher1234 on Thursday December 14, 2023 @12:33AM (#38638169)
Aren’t you at least a little curious to read the comment you replied to?
Re:What should we make of the return of Sigmund Freud? by qarl on Thursday December 14, 2023 @08:04AM (#38640883)
I would really appreciate a clear, concise, direct answer to my question.

I don't think I'm asking too much.

Re:What should we make of the return of Sigmund Freud? by philosopher1234 on Thursday December 21, 2023 @11:18AM (#38722450)
It sounds like you did the first part of reading, looking at words, and not the second, thinking about them.
Re:What should we make of the return of Sigmund Freud? by qarl on Tuesday December 26, 2023 @01:58PM (#38774745)
And from my perspective, the whole thing sounds very much like a weird religion.

So I guess we should just agree to disagree.

Re:What should we make of the return of Sigmund Freud? by 2devnull on Thursday December 14, 2023 @04:15AM (#38639400)
Freud’s thinking was dynamic and dialectical. I think you’re acknowledging that when you say he has to be taken as a whole. There are parts of that whole that are inconsistent, parts that were added and removed, a ship of Theseus grand theory of personality. His seduction theory is a good example of the dialectical aspect of his theorizing, but there are many others. So I agree, it is the process that describes the Freudian “analytic” approach, moreso than a specific construct or summation of his theory (theories?) as it (they) existed at any particular point during or after his lifetime.
Re:What should we make of the return of Sigmund Freud? by AlbertCory on Wednesday December 13, 2023 @10:47PM (#38637529)
I guess this is really four words:

tl;dr

Re:What should we make of the return of Sigmund Freud? by SubiculumCode on Thursday December 14, 2023 @12:13AM (#38638055)
when it comes to Freud, I tend to keep it to four letters.
Re:What should we make of the return of Sigmund Freud? by pfannkuchen on Wednesday December 13, 2023 @09:38PM (#38637134)
I didn’t realize that Jordan Peterson was on HN!
Re:What should we make of the return of Sigmund Freud? by dang on Wednesday December 13, 2023 @10:17PM (#38637382)
"Don't be snarky." "Edit out swipes."

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re:What should we make of the return of Sigmund Freud? by pfannkuchen on Thursday December 14, 2023 @12:18AM (#38638075)
It wasn’t meant as an insult— the modern-lens defense of Freud just sounded remarkably like Peterson in a way that I found entertaining! I’m not particularly anti-Peterson, though I guess that might be the common view here so I can see how it might have sounded negative.

By the way thanks for all your great work! I’m honored to have been scolded by dang!

Re:What should we make of the return of Sigmund Freud? by dang on Thursday December 14, 2023 @12:30AM (#38638141)
Aw now I feel bad.

Short comments admit of many interpretations, and the bias (including mine) is towards negative. That's my excuse!

Re:What should we make of the return of Sigmund Freud? by pfannkuchen on Thursday December 14, 2023 @01:11AM (#38638354)
I agree short comments are hazardous - feedback received!
Re:What should we make of the return of Sigmund Freud? by DiscourseFan on Wednesday December 13, 2023 @09:58PM (#38637260)
This reading of Freud is far closer to Lacan. I don't know anything about Peterson's psychoanalytic work.
Re:What should we make of the return of Sigmund Freud? by ajkjk on Thursday December 14, 2023 @10:54PM (#38650795)
Pretty much totally disagree. You can take all the parts piecemeal. You can use the underlying concepts of his model without buying the dubious narrative of the Oedipus complex. And you can say there's something that "rings true" about the Oedipus complex without interpreting it as a literal predictive theory, aka, accept it in part while rejecting it in the whole. Easily. It's a model, and taking it piecemeal can consist either of borrowing its nouns without its story, or taking part of its story but saying it's not the full picture, or not completely right, etc.