What if that terrorist was launching rockets from that apartment? Would it be justified then? These things aren't black-and-white. I don't want to be the person who says how much collateral damage is okay.

Israel has a proven ability to do precision strikes on apartment buildings that would basically only target the terrorist - we've seen them do this - but they choose to level entire buildings instead. You can probably figure out why they choose that option.

Israel also has the proven ability to level all of Gaza, but they fact that they don't doesn't mean much. Outsider speculation on Israeli military objectives is meaningless.

Wars don't end when one side gets yelled at. They either end with diplomacy or victory.

The photos coming out of the north suggest they have in fact decided to level most or all of Gaza.

you and the OP are conflating civil war with laws of war. October 7th was clearly an act of war, and war has been the result. Hamas knew this, but relied on Hezbollah and Houthies pitching in in a much larger way, they miscalculated and Gaza suffers.

I don't think they miscalculated. Almost everything in this benefit them in almost every possible ways. The horrors of Gaza makes them almost look nice to the eyes of some (they never have been more popular in Palestine and in the world), and makes sure they will have no shortage of terrorists in the many years to come, among the innocent victims and their brothers and sons/orphans. I don't imagine they care or didn't anticipate for those killing of innocent people.

Gaza suffering is the best thing for Hamas. Israel is doing the best possible thing for Hamas and that's why Israel should stop. Because worse than unjustified, their actions are stupid, unless you are a politician saving face.

Pray tell, imagine yourself as a 10 year old Palestinian kid who lost half of his family, his house and several friends to Israeli military action. What are the odds that you are willing to die in order to harm Israel in any way, shape or form?

Again, this is the best scenario for Hamas. Their leaders are literally not even in Palestine, Israel could decimate the population thrice and chances are that the amount of terrorists would increase.

I think it's pretty clear Hamas's main objective was to derail the rapprochement between Israel and Saudi Arabia. They achieved that. It's also clear they don't care what the cost is to Gazans.

>Isn't defense also supposed to be targeted against an aggressor?

Gaza is the agressor.

>How could the millions of innocent civilians that Israel is displacing, destroying all their houses and belongings and killing (and maybe torturing as described in this article), be considered in any way as aggressor?

Because they are launching rockets and hostage raids against Israel?

>if a terrorist hid in an appartement building, and the police came, start killing all the inhabitants of the building and destroyed the building, in order to stop that terrorist, would you be wondering if that response is legitimate defense? I don't think so.

How is that in any way related to the situation in Gaza? Hamas aren't random terrorists, they're the government, they control the whole territory, they get paid taxes, they have bases all over Gaza.

This is war.

> Gaza is the agressor

Sure, if you completely ignore any previous history and the fact that Israel was created by stealing Palestinians’ land

From the other side, you could say Palestinians have never stopped defending themselves

This is not war, this is a brutal genocidal occupation that started many years ago and that Israel is trying to “complete” now by forcefully displacing all Palestinians

The end goal seems to be to occupy as much of “ancestral Israel” as possible

Israel was not created by "stealing Palestinian land."

"Palestinians have never stopped defending themselves." Do you mean when they explode suicide vests and shoot rockets at cities? Is that what you call defending themselves?

"genocidal occupation..." I find it hilarious that people can say a population with some of the highest growth on the planet is at the same time suffering a genocide.

"The end goal seems to be to occupy as much of “ancestral Israel” as possible." Explain how forcing your citizens to leave Gaza in 2005 fits into this master plan.

Please explain how the state of Israel magically appeared in its current location without taking any land from anyone

Please explain how the 2023 and the 2005 governments are the same

And also please explain why the definition of genocide has absolutely no references to population size or growth, yet you keep bringing it up to justify what Israel is doing to the Palestinian people

Not OP, but it magically appeared by League of Nations (UN) vote in 1948.

"Stealing land" is a very one-sided war to look at it. The legalities and mortality of land captured in self defence are debatable to some extent, but clearly not theft. Pre 1948 there was never a Palestinian state (no Palestinian government, currency, army).

2005 disengagement was a more right-wing government. Interestingly, the real peace actions in Israel tend to be achieved by the right wing government.

But if by your argument every Israeli government is somehow a separate state entity, why did the terrorist attacks continue non stop through right wing and left wing Israeli governments?

War is not genocide. Using overly emotive terms does not make your argument stronger.

> it magically appeared by League of Nations (UN) vote in 1948. > "Stealing land" is a very one-sided war to look at it. The legalities and mortality of land captured in self defence are debatable to some extent, but clearly not theft

Why does it need to be some other state there to be theft?

If some lobbied politicians voted to establish a state that takes over your house and farm, would you just consider it ok? Because they voted for it? So then it’s not theft?

If then the people that take over your non-state land, start taking over your neighbors’ land, sometimes even killing them, that’s also not theft? Because the UN voted for it?

Also, Israel keeps doing it. Even right now, illegal settlement activity in the West Bank (as well as violence) are ongoing and increasing. Do you not consider that theft either?

Not sure what you mean about the Israeli government

What’s going on now is clearly not a war but genocide. The historical context, the literal intent expressed by Israeli political and military leadership, as well as the insane slaughter and destruction executed by Israel both in Gaza and the West Bank, all together very clearly fit both the dictionary and legal definitions of genocide

You think denying that makes Israel’s horrendous actions any better?

You have a very simplistic view of the history. Many Arabs actually aren’t native to the land either, they moved there for work that the new Jewish immigrants provided. In fact there was significant mutual cooperation and benefit. Land wasn’t stolen either, but bought after the Ottomans empire fell and it became legal for Jews to buy Muslim land (the ottomans had some nasty rules). If you’re referring to 700k Palestinians leaving in 1948, there was no historical order to evict anyone from outside the future Israeli borders, fact is they fled either from fear or through encouragement. Many millions of people have fled war, more numerous than this, but yet that is the most infamous.

> 700k Palestinians leaving in 1948, there was no historical order to evict anyone from outside the future Israeli borders, fact is they fled either from fear or through encouragement

What weasel way to say killing and displacing the Palestinian to steal their land

On top of that, regardless of whatever history, it’s something that is happening right now. Everyday settlers are forcing Palestinians out of their homes, farms and land in the West Bank

Or are you saying Palestinians in the West Bank are also just “fleeing either from fear or through encouragement”?