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Re:Gilles Deleuze – What is Philosophy? [audio] by nathias on Saturday December 09, 2023 @04:37AM (#38580251)
Deleuze is one of the best thinkers of the last century, but he requires a lot of reading before what he's saying can make any sense.
Re:Gilles Deleuze – What is Philosophy? [audio] by zupatol on Saturday December 09, 2023 @06:31AM (#38581004)
I read a few pages of thousand plateaus and I didn't get the impression he really wanted the reader to make sense of it.

It's full of quotations of works you would certainly know if you had enough culture. It feels like an violent attempt to humiliate the reader into submission. Apparently the english version came out with a lot of footnotes to provide context. This probably betrays the spirit of the original.

I'll try to listen to the podcast though, maybe some civilized people did manage to find something valuable in his writing.

Re:Gilles Deleuze – What is Philosophy? [audio] by nathias on Saturday December 09, 2023 @08:37AM (#38581808)
Continental philosophy has some starting points, but some authors will be completely incomprehensible without reading most of the classical works. It's written for philosophers. If you haven't read at least Kant and Hegel, Heidegger and know what psychoanalysis and structuralism are about you have no basis of understanding for it.
Re:Gilles Deleuze – What is Philosophy? [audio] by zupatol on Saturday December 09, 2023 @12:25PM (#38583703)
Haven't read all of that, but it strikes me that some of these authors like Freud and Levi-Strauss are perfectly understandable without much background. Haven't tried Kant but other authors consider him very methodic and logical, about the opposite of Deuleuze, and he's a big inspiration for the very readable Schopenhauer.

Maybe Hegel and Heidegger are where things get complicated.

Re:Gilles Deleuze – What is Philosophy? [audio] by namarie on Saturday December 09, 2023 @12:57PM (#38584021)
Do try Kant; being "methodic and logical" in no way implies being easy to read!
Re:Gilles Deleuze – What is Philosophy? [audio] by nathias on Saturday December 09, 2023 @01:16PM (#38584206)
Freud and Levi-Strauss were scientists/academics who influenced philosophy, but not philosophers. Philosophy has a lot of dependencies, this is why every so often a fork is needed to 'restart' but it never works and dependencies start piling up again.
Re:Gilles Deleuze – What is Philosophy? [audio] by standfest on Saturday December 09, 2023 @01:00PM (#38584046)
I would like to support this observation. Obviously, they generated some language of their own, with lots of implications and references. Once you start reading it, it becomes a rabbit hole (back in the days my entry point was Adorno and Horkheimer). Words might be familiar, but their meaning is different. There was a reason to study, and the trend to render science accessible to laypeople was not yet born. Maybe even not wanted, to quote the ideas behind the concept of cultural industrial complex.
Re:Gilles Deleuze – What is Philosophy? [audio] by steveklabnik on Saturday December 09, 2023 @05:37PM (#38586825)
I would like to third this as well. Software developers are incredibly familiar with the concept of a field that contains a lot of jargon and that you can't have meaningful conversations about certain things until you've learned some of it: that's also software engineering!

Just because these folks are writing for people with a different background than the one that you have doesn't mean it's nonsense, it means you have yet to engage with enough of the field to understand what's going on. Everyone starts there!

Re:Gilles Deleuze – What is Philosophy? [audio] by steveklabnik on Sunday December 10, 2023 @11:56AM (#38592920)
So a thousand plateaus is great but also very weird, by design. One of their goals is to reject the very structure of a book. One of the forwards by the English translator elaborates: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35459054

Honestly I think his forward is one of the better simple examples of the big ideas of the book.

But anyway.

Deleuze’s own work and his work with Guattari are very different. The series of books he wrote on other philosophers, and his own thesis, have a much more straightforward style. In my understanding they are often considered unorthodox readings of the source material (in particularly Nietzsche) but that is on purpose. You may find that stuff more interesting than the more adventurous stuff.

Re:Gilles Deleuze – What is Philosophy? [audio] by profeatur on Saturday December 09, 2023 @07:48AM (#38581531)
+1. Even if many of the mid-twentieth century French philosophers were incomprehensible and self-contradictory, they certainly provided a lot of useful raw material for more grounded thinkers like De Landa.
Re:Gilles Deleuze – What is Philosophy? [audio] by dr_dshiv on Saturday December 09, 2023 @05:30AM (#38580579)
He is very popular in the arts, but I don’t understand why. It’s vaguely platonic (which I like) but obtuse (like kant).
Re:Gilles Deleuze – What is Philosophy? [audio] by nonrandomstring on Saturday December 09, 2023 @06:11AM (#38580866)
Deleuze shows up in film and sound design, maybe music a bit. I get why; process, change, emergence, diversity... all have a deep bearing on these arts. Personally find it useful for understanding media in a theoretical way. But what practising artists can really use from Deleuze, I am unsure.
Re:Gilles Deleuze – What is Philosophy? [audio] by smokel on Saturday December 09, 2023 @07:30AM (#38581422)
Many contemporary artists are good at associative thought but pretty bad at rational thought.

Several popular French philosophers say a lot, so there will always be some interesting hook for people to catch on.

The rational thinker will get annoyed, because the drivel is unfounded. The artist will feel inspired and enlightened.

(Source: have formal education in both mathematics and fine arts.)

Re:Gilles Deleuze – What is Philosophy? [audio] by 2devnull on Saturday December 09, 2023 @08:18AM (#38581704)
The influence of French cinema may be a factor too I would guess.
Re:Gilles Deleuze – What is Philosophy? [audio] by nathias on Saturday December 09, 2023 @08:39AM (#38581827)
this is more of a problem of the US reception of Deleuze via literary studies not philosophy, Deleuze is a very serious and rational thinker, but without context, it's senseless (which people use for posturing)
Re:Gilles Deleuze – What is Philosophy? [audio] by smokel on Saturday December 09, 2023 @02:36PM (#38585114)
Hm, I should not have used the word "drivel", that may have been a bit too harsh.

A thing with Deleuze is that I still see very little value in some of his ideas. The idea of a "rhizome" for instance (which might be related to Latour's "actor-network theory") seems rather trivial to me. This may well be because I grew up in a time when these ideas were already fairly mainstream, but I find it highly unlikely that people before Deleuze only thought in black and white.

A hurdle that I may once have to cross is that I should not read these philosophers for their original thought, but more for their critique on contemporary society. The latter seems rather pointless, because it costs me almost no effort to superficially critique contemporary society myself :)

Re:Gilles Deleuze – What is Philosophy? [audio] by nathias on Saturday December 09, 2023 @05:00PM (#38586519)
most of it is an attempt to escape Hegelianism/Marxism/psychoanalysis, but his earlier works (Difference and Repetition, Logic Of Sense) are much better in terms of accessibility, to me his best are books on other philosophers, on Kant, Spinoza, Leibniz.

The late stages of philosophers' works are often quite wacky.

Re:Gilles Deleuze – What is Philosophy? [audio] by pas on Saturday December 09, 2023 @06:10AM (#38580859)
the only thing I know about him (them, with Guattari), is that they went all-in to post-modern stuff with regards to the individual and society, and a lot of artists are simply find that relatable. (only the non-conformist can survive in this capitalist wasteland of ever increasing economic efficiency, etc.. etc..)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Oedipus with the subtitle "Capitalism and Schizophrenia" ... and in the second part "A Thousand Plateaus" they discuss a lot of artists

> obtuse

who isn't? but seriously, first-hand reading of philosophy seems like a big no-no, almost all of it is derivative and it's very hard to present it in an efficient way (just the exposition/background/context required for [comprehending] thought experiments is usually a few dense pages, etc.)

or possibly my past encounters were very unfortunate, and it'd be great to hear some suggestions!

Re:Gilles Deleuze – What is Philosophy? [audio] by shortrounddev2 on Saturday December 09, 2023 @07:30AM (#38581417)
The arts are all about saying bullshit that means nothing but everyone pretends they understand in order to be part of the "in" crowd
Re:Gilles Deleuze – What is Philosophy? [audio] by plastic_enjoyer on Saturday December 09, 2023 @08:00AM (#38581606)
Did an artist hurt you? You seem to carry a lot of hate for artists and philosophers.
Re:Gilles Deleuze – What is Philosophy? [audio] by mrkeen on Saturday December 09, 2023 @12:29PM (#38583737)
What was something he said that made sense?