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Re:Swedish Tesla strike goes international as Norwegian and ... by bayindirh on Thursday December 07, 2023 @11:21AM (#38558194)
Doesn’t matter. Even when you’re fully owned by a government, unionization allows you to do this.

This is what unionization is, protects the worker regardless of your employer.

Re:Swedish Tesla strike goes international as Norwegian and ... by robertlagrant on Thursday December 07, 2023 @11:25AM (#38558265)
Unionization shouldn't be there to disrupt another company. It should be there so you can bargain against your employer. This seems really inappropriate.
Re:Swedish Tesla strike goes international as Norwegian and ... by JumpCrisscross on Thursday December 07, 2023 @11:27AM (#38558293)
> Unionization shouldn't be there to disrupt another company. It should be there so you can bargain against your employer.

That's what Tesla's employees are doing.

The point of a sympathetic strike is so that a small country's workforce can stand up to the likes of Tesla. Tesla can always withdraw from the Nordic market if they don't like the rules (which never changed). They don't want to do that because there is something there worth negotiating for.

Re:Swedish Tesla strike goes international as Norwegian and ... by robertlagrant on Thursday December 07, 2023 @11:40AM (#38558474)
But it's not a sympathetic strike. They're refusing to deliver Tesla's mail. They aren't striking against their employer.
Re:Swedish Tesla strike goes international as Norwegian and ... by babypuncher on Thursday December 07, 2023 @12:19PM (#38559066)
I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the definition of "sympathetic strike".
Re:Swedish Tesla strike goes international as Norwegian and ... by JumpCrisscross on Thursday December 07, 2023 @11:52AM (#38558669)
> it's not a sympathetic strike...They aren't striking against their employer.

You're defining a sympathetic strike.

I don't have a view on whether this is justified. What I'll contest is that it was unforeseeable. It was obvious a refusal to negotiate would infuriate--it's happened dozens of times, almost always with American companies, and it's close to an element of national and regional pride at this point. It wasn't a certainty, but there was a definite risk of it escalating across Sweden. And from there it was and is a virtual certainty that it would spread across Scandinavia, and from there will across the Nordic countries and eventually Northern Europe.

This is a stupid molehill to die on for Tesla. They should bite the bullet and devolve Swedish operations to a local franchise who can enter into a collective-bargaing agreement .

Re:Swedish Tesla strike goes international as Norwegian and ... by robertlagrant on Thursday December 07, 2023 @12:09PM (#38558920)
Probably, yes they should. Clearly Elon Musk has never seen The Godfather!
Re:Swedish Tesla strike goes international as Norwegian and ... by actionfromafar on Thursday December 07, 2023 @06:53PM (#38563496)
Or can't decide which role he's playing. :-)
Re:Swedish Tesla strike goes international as Norwegian and ... by 93po on Thursday December 07, 2023 @11:41AM (#38558500)
Their refusal to deliver mail can be viewed as a partial strike I guess
Re:Swedish Tesla strike goes international as Norwegian and ... by bayindirh on Thursday December 07, 2023 @11:42AM (#38558511)
They are increasing the pressure on a company which is not treating their workers well and fairly.

These workers are friends, wives, husbands, relatives…

It’s more than justified.

Re:Swedish Tesla strike goes international as Norwegian and ... by robertlagrant on Thursday December 07, 2023 @12:03PM (#38558826)
You're missing the point. I'm not debating the validity of whether people should leave Tesla and go work somewhere else. I'm saying that it's not a strike if you're just refusing service to a customer.

A strike - whether because of your circumstances or another's - is you downing tools and stopping working.

Re:Swedish Tesla strike goes international as Norwegian and ... by JumpCrisscross on Thursday December 07, 2023 @12:06PM (#38558875)
> it's not a strike if you're just refusing service to a customer...a strike...is you downing tools and stopping working

This hasn't been what a strike has meant in Scandinavia for a century.

I'm American. I broadly think unions are ineffective and corrupt. But it's ridiculous to claim this strike is unprecedented. Even the pattern of an American company being flummoxed by it is deeply precedented.

If you want to do business in the Nordic countries, you respect the collective-bargaining process. That doesn't capitulation. It doesn't even mean you must enter into one. But you can't blow it off, and at that so dismissively.

Re:Swedish Tesla strike goes international as Norwegian and ... by peterfirefly on Thursday December 07, 2023 @02:10PM (#38560464)
> If you want to do business in the Nordic countries, you respect the collective-bargaining process.

And if you want to do business in many other countries, you have to pay bribes -- or campaign contributions or hire someone's incompetent nephew or hire people with the right "discriminated against" skin colour. That's not legal, either.

Re:Swedish Tesla strike goes international as Norwegian and ... by jacquesm on Thursday December 07, 2023 @04:35PM (#38562130)
Are you seriously comparing collective bargaining with bribing officials?
Re:Swedish Tesla strike goes international as Norwegian and ... by bayindirh on Thursday December 07, 2023 @12:19PM (#38559067)
No, I’m not. I’m on mobile, and failed to convey my message.

What I tried to say is, postal workers are increasing pressure on a company which is treating their workers unfairly, and these workers are connected to the postal workers in a way.

So, what postal workers are doing is justified.

Re:Swedish Tesla strike goes international as Norwegian and ... by robertlagrant on Thursday December 07, 2023 @12:31PM (#38559209)
I'm not saying that employees shouldn't do certain things if they really don't like a company. Don't buy their products. Post opinions publically. Actually go on strike at your own employer.

I'm saying I don't think that refusing individual service to a customer is a good idea. It seems highly prone to groupthink and as it comes at zero cost to the striking party, prone to misuse as well. Actual striking is moderately balanced because it's limited and comes at a cost to both parties.

It seems simpler to just not work for the company. My understanding is they aren't treating their employees unfairly; they just aren't entering into the union merry-go-round. Their current employees all agreed to employment under the current situation, and now seem to be changing their minds once they've secured employment. But I could be wrong on that last part - perhaps this was promised and that was withdrawn.

Re:Swedish Tesla strike goes international as Norwegian and ... by JumpCrisscross on Thursday December 07, 2023 @12:45PM (#38559380)
> seems highly prone to groupthink and as it comes at zero cost to the striking party

In most cases, there is an alternative service provider. In this case there isn't, but there is also zero public will to change that due to the facts and circumstances of the dispute. Were those different, Postnord would be risking its monopoly on license-plate delivery.

Re:Swedish Tesla strike goes international as Norwegian and ... by bayindirh on Thursday December 07, 2023 @02:01PM (#38560340)
I mean, in this case this is both their legal right and higher court ruled that it’s legal and doable.

So, who are we to judge? It’s their country and their laws. I just stated that, their laws and the way of action they took resonates with me. That’s all.

Re:Swedish Tesla strike goes international as Norwegian and ... by eddtries on Thursday December 07, 2023 @01:27PM (#38559893)
> I'm saying that it's not a strike if you're just refusing service to a customer.

> is you downing tools and stopping working.

These aren't exclusive, it's just they've downed tools and stopped working for the customer the strike is against. People don't join unions for their employer, they join unions for their industry. Therefore a union can strike against an employer while maintaining working for those not breaking collective agreements.

Re:Swedish Tesla strike goes international as Norwegian and ... by robertlagrant on Thursday December 07, 2023 @05:03PM (#38562449)
Tesla isn't breaking a collective agreement.
Re:Swedish Tesla strike goes international as Norwegian and ... by actionfromafar on Thursday December 07, 2023 @07:03PM (#38563589)
This is true and I upvoted your comment.

Tesla, welcome to a free country where the state doesn't interfere. Truly a Rand-ian paradise. ;-)

Re:Swedish Tesla strike goes international as Norwegian and ... by robertlagrant on Friday December 08, 2023 @09:52AM (#38569735)
Pretty sure Rand would say that if you join a company on a certain employment basis, you shouldn't then decide it's suddenly not good enough. But I haven't read any of her books, so I won't claim that very strongly!
Re:Swedish Tesla strike goes international as Norwegian and ... by eddtries on Friday December 08, 2023 @04:27AM (#38567013)
You're right, I didn't write my original point very well. I'll blame it on Covid and rambling from bed lol.
Re:Swedish Tesla strike goes international as Norwegian and ... by xorcist on Friday December 08, 2023 @06:54PM (#38576576)
A strike has a legal definition which is not open for debate.

Perhaps you are thinking of a general strike? This is a solidarity strike.

Re:Swedish Tesla strike goes international as Norwegian and ... by distances on Thursday December 07, 2023 @11:42AM (#38558513)
On the contrary, it's a crucial part of collective bargaining. You have to be large enough to bargain effectively.

Companies in the Nordics aren't alone either, they have employers' organizations where a whole sector of employers band together to bargain with the unions. These discussions then produce collective agreements that bind the whole sector for a given timespan.

It might sound alien to some, but it has guaranteed stable work conditions and a dedicated workforce for a century already.

Re:Swedish Tesla strike goes international as Norwegian and ... by robertlagrant on Thursday December 07, 2023 @12:05PM (#38558860)
I'm not saying they shouldn't go on strike. I'm saying that they aren't on strike, as they're still working. Refusing to service one customer isn't striking.
Re:Swedish Tesla strike goes international as Norwegian and ... by distances on Thursday December 07, 2023 @12:34PM (#38559261)
It's just one company that doesn't play ball so a full strike wouldn't be appropriate reaction, especially as employers' organization apparently isn't a participant here. Say, striking dockworkers can paralyze the whole economy, all sectors. It's not a step to be taken lightly.
Re:Swedish Tesla strike goes international as Norwegian and ... by robertlagrant on Thursday December 07, 2023 @12:51PM (#38559446)
It's not just one company "not playing ball". Spotify, with ten times as many affected employees in Sweden, also doesn't have an agreement.

> It's not a step to be taken lightly.

Well, there's no balancing downside to doing it this way. Workers still get paid. So they can do this pretty lightly, assuming their employers allow them to just discriminate against certain customers.

Re:Swedish Tesla strike goes international as Norwegian and ... by distances on Thursday December 07, 2023 @03:48PM (#38561623)
> Well, there's no balancing downside to doing it this way.

With the dockworkers example there is a massive downside: you mess up all industries doing any export or import. You really need a large buy-in before doing something that can mess up all unrelated industries, and thus potentially employment. In a small country no union operates in a vacuum, you'd quickly lose all goodwill.

Edit: I think I answered off your point, which was about the specific company. Yes I don't think there's any big downside now, but if Tesla was playing by the book they would have the industry behind them. They are just choosing a more difficult way.

Re:Swedish Tesla strike goes international as Norwegian and ... by robertlagrant on Thursday December 07, 2023 @05:05PM (#38562469)
To be clear: they are playing by the book. This is a power play to get them to set up a locally-owned subsidiary that runs things. It happens in various places. In China it's even more strongly enforced.
Re:Swedish Tesla strike goes international as Norwegian and ... by xorcist on Friday December 08, 2023 @05:22PM (#38575442)
Well, while it's completely legal, it's not entirely by the book. It starts to get a bit of a gray area when you reach a certain size.

The unions, including the employer unions (NB!), have during the past century kept the country's lawmakers mostly out of regulating workforce agreements, including things like minimum pay, workplace insurance, and large parts of the pension system. These things are regulated by sector, and the regulations are re-bargained on a set schedule by these parties alone.

You can't stay out of these agreements for too long once you reach a certain size. The unions are trusted to handle this by their own. That is mostly done by sweetening the deal until it is accepted, usually by signing away the fundamental right to strike. It is not obvious if such fundamental rights really are bound to contract, especially not with the European Court, but it has resulted in a society where strikes are almost unheard of. Calling a strike without the backing of a union is pretty ineffective anyway, and the unions have their self interest in strong companies that can compete internationally and provide new jobs for the workforce.

The only times strikes are called are when some company will not present a counterparty to a contract negotiation, which is what this situation is. That happens once every decade and when it happens the unions all move in unison with several decades of money saved up, to show their might in order to make the affair as swift as possible. It's something that is often rehearsed often and seldom practiced.

Solidarity strikes are expected as a show of force. Things will escalate from there. While the part about an offer you can't refuse clearly has some similarities with mafia operations, the boundaries are clearly defined by law. There are lawyers specializing in this their entire careers.

Comparing this with the Chinese system misses the point by a mile.

Re:Swedish Tesla strike goes international as Norwegian and ... by martin8412 on Thursday December 07, 2023 @01:33PM (#38559950)
The unions don't go after companies that provide better than CBA to all employees. I don't know if that's the case with Spotify though.
Re:Swedish Tesla strike goes international as Norwegian and ... by robertlagrant on Thursday December 07, 2023 @05:06PM (#38562479)
Sorry - what's CBA?
Re:Swedish Tesla strike goes international as Norwegian and ... by morelisp on Thursday December 07, 2023 @02:45PM (#38560895)
It will be interesting to see how long Spotify keeps operating without an agreement given recent news.
Re:Swedish Tesla strike goes international as Norwegian and ... by yxhuvud on Thursday December 07, 2023 @11:59AM (#38558771)
And protection against that is one of the things a company gains by making a collective agreement with a union. Without such an agreement, it is a grand melee between companies and unions.
Re:Swedish Tesla strike goes international as Norwegian and ... by yxhuvud on Thursday December 07, 2023 @12:01PM (#38558809)
The problem is exactly that Tesla refuses to bargain with the union. Once you are dealing with the unions you will be safe from sympathetic strikes.
Re:Swedish Tesla strike goes international as Norwegian and ... by ImPostingOnHN on Thursday December 07, 2023 @04:49PM (#38562288)
It seems like the people of the country were willing to do business with Tesla, but elmu refused to negotiate the terms under which the business would be done. No negotiation = no terms = no business.

If this is what elmu wants, so be it. The people of the country will continue deciding how to run their country without this particular arrogant rich narcissist.

Re:Swedish Tesla strike goes international as Norwegian and ... by robertlagrant on Thursday December 07, 2023 @05:08PM (#38562496)
I don't understand - haven't the people to do the work already been hired? Wasn't business already being done? This is a post-hoc change to the agreed terms of employment by the employees.
Re:Swedish Tesla strike goes international as Norwegian and ... by ImPostingOnHN on Thursday December 07, 2023 @05:33PM (#38562725)
I would be happy to help you understand. Two concepts at play here, which are important to understand, are sympathy strikes (I'll leave it to you to check out the term and read up on the logic behind the action) and precedent setting (the people of the country don't wish to set a precedent of employers refusing to collectively bargain with workers).
Re:Swedish Tesla strike goes international as Norwegian and ... by riversflow on Thursday December 07, 2023 @11:26AM (#38558287)
We should unioninze the military.
Re:Swedish Tesla strike goes international as Norwegian and ... by Symbiote on Thursday December 07, 2023 @11:37AM (#38558443)
See https://euromil.org/our-members/ for the European military unions.