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Re:Tesla battle with Swedish unions spreads to Denmark by JumpCrisscross on Tuesday December 05, 2023 @04:46AM (#38528758)
> might be worried that if they go down this route then they get set on a path to become their outdated competitors

They petrified when they became inflexible. Adaptability, not orthodoxy, is how challengers win.

To be clear, I don't think we'll see some pan-European labour movement against Tesla. But I do think it's becoming increasingly lucrative to take pot shots at the firm. If that starts happening in EU capitals, that's twenty-eight needless distractions to dispatch.

Re:Tesla battle with Swedish unions spreads to Denmark by ffgjgf1 on Tuesday December 05, 2023 @04:55AM (#38528815)
Tesla could always shift most of their production to the ex-“socialist” Eastern/Central European which don’t have strong labor movements and lower wages (of course lacking infrastructure would make it harder).
Re:Tesla battle with Swedish unions spreads to Denmark by fodkodrasz on Tuesday December 05, 2023 @05:25AM (#38529100)
What infrastructure is lacking there? The region is already an automotive manufacturing powerhouse, only the recent energy supply problems hit it somewhat because of the war in Ukraine and the sanctions following it.

The countries without a sea connection, or energy pipelines to such a country are having harder time getting energy. Mostly German automotive firms and their supply chain have factories and those usually have some unionization, though truly not as strong as in the Nordics, and the workers can indeed be paid with lower wages without inducing discontent.

Re:Tesla battle with Swedish unions spreads to Denmark by FirmwareBurner on Tuesday December 05, 2023 @05:25AM (#38529101)
>Tesla could always shift most of their production to the ex-“socialist” Eastern/Central European which don’t have strong labor movements

But the striking Swedish Tesla workers aren't working in production, they're working in services. So even if Teslas would be made in Romania or Bulgaria, you still need to service them in Sweden, you won't send them to Bulgaria for service.

>of course lacking infrastructure would make it harder

What infrastructure is lacking? Poland, Czechia and especially Romania are already quite big auto manufacturing hubs.

Re:Tesla battle with Swedish unions spreads to Denmark by fodkodrasz on Tuesday December 05, 2023 @05:43AM (#38529239)
Actually Czechia and Slovakia surpass Romania in automotive production.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/585024/leading-car-autom...

Re:Tesla battle with Swedish unions spreads to Denmark by FirmwareBurner on Tuesday December 05, 2023 @06:15AM (#38529480)
Paywall.

Edit: That statistic only shows number of cars coming out the assembly lines but the automotive sector is way bigger than that. There's also OEM suppliers and parts manufacturing, including SW, that also contribute to the auto sector.

Re:Tesla battle with Swedish unions spreads to Denmark by fodkodrasz on Tuesday December 05, 2023 @07:15AM (#38529886)
I think it is a safe bet to assume that those integrated industries have strong correlation with the manufacturing output. Especially in Czechia, which had the most advanced indigenous can R+D and manufacturing in the region before the fall of the iron curtain. I get that you are proud of the Romanian industry, which does have its merits, but in CEE it is not one of the biggest ones as you suggested in your GP comment. Czechia is the no.1 player in that field imo.
Re:Tesla battle with Swedish unions spreads to Denmark by ffgjgf1 on Tuesday December 05, 2023 @05:29AM (#38529133)
> What infrastructure is lacking? Poland, Czechia and especially Romania are already quite big auto manufacturing hubs.

There must be some reason Tesla decided to build their massive factory in Germany?

Re:Tesla battle with Swedish unions spreads to Denmark by FirmwareBurner on Tuesday December 05, 2023 @06:16AM (#38529486)
>There must be some reason Tesla decided to build their massive factory in Germany?

The same reason cheaper cars are made in lower-cost countries and premium cars in high cost countries, and Tesla is still a premium car.

Tesla went to Germany because it has the best infrastructure for automotive and they're making premium cars and can afford the higher costs of building in Germany as time to market was more important for them to gain market share than reducing costs. Cost reduction comes at a later stage.

But that doesn't mean Eastern EU countries have bad infrastructure, otherwise nobody would build cars there.

If we want EVs to get cheaper to rival those from China, then either those German workers will have to accept lower wages, or the EVs will have to be made in lower labor countries. There's no free lunch.

Re:Tesla battle with Swedish unions spreads to Denmark by ffgjgf1 on Tuesday December 05, 2023 @07:28AM (#38529954)
> But that doesn't mean Eastern EU countries have bad infrastructure, otherwise nobody would build cars there.

But we still agree that they have worse infrastructure and that lower labor costs and no pesky unions didn’t seem to offset that in Tesla’s case.

> If we want EVs to get cheaper to rival those from China,

Higher tariffs would also be a perfectly reasonable solution.

Re:Tesla battle with Swedish unions spreads to Denmark by FirmwareBurner on Tuesday December 05, 2023 @08:06AM (#38530215)
>But we still agree that they have worse infrastructure and that lower labor costs and no pesky unions didn’t seem to offset that in Tesla’s case.

Because, like I already said, Tesla had to enter the EU swinging to quickly maximize market share. And since its vehicles are all premium anyway, it could afford the higher cost of German manufacturing, but as the EV race heats up in the future moving into the lower cost segment, I'll bet you factories in the East will happen otherwise you can't have cheap EVs.

>Higher tariffs would also be a perfectly reasonable solution.

Do you want an EV future or not? Because as long as EVs stay more expensive in the EU, the average joe will keep buying ICEs, and EU EV industry will fall behind the Chinese one anyway making them uncompetitive exports. The EU car makers need to haul ass on the EV side kicking and screaming otherwise tariffs won't save them forever from going bust.

Sure, you can put tariffs on Chinese imports and tariffs already exist, but then the Chinese will do in the EU, what the Japanese did in the US: build local factories in low wage areas to build affordable cars, and still undercut the local competition.

Re:Tesla battle with Swedish unions spreads to Denmark by ffgjgf1 on Tuesday December 05, 2023 @11:03AM (#38532613)
> Do you want an EV future or not?

Not at the cost of the European car industry.

> Because as long as EVs stay more expensive in the EU, the average joe will keep buying ICEs

Why would tariffs affect EV prices disproportionately more than that of ICE cars?

> US: build local factories in low wage areas to build affordable cars, and still undercut the local competition.

Which is IMHO probably thr best outcome. You’d have actual competition driving prices down but Chinese manufacturers wouldn’t have unfair advantages like when they are allowed to import cars from China.

Also US has much higher tariffs than thE EU. So I don’t think they are necessarily hurting electrification that much.

Re:Tesla battle with Swedish unions spreads to Denmark by JumpCrisscross on Tuesday December 05, 2023 @05:03AM (#38528885)
> Tesla could always shift most of their production to the ex-“socialist” Eastern/Central European which don’t have strong labor movements and lower wages

This might be the one move stupider than starting this fight, an innovator's dilemma [1] own goal.

The Nordics are a high-income EV beachhead. Tesla has best-selling cars. This entire fight is currently intrigue. The risk is it metastasising into a political crisis. What makes that crisis a crisis is it threatens those sales. Decamping--in effect, surrendering--positively nukes them.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Innovator's_Dilemma

Re:Tesla battle with Swedish unions spreads to Denmark by fodkodrasz on Tuesday December 05, 2023 @05:29AM (#38529137)
It it were about manufacturing, then moving that to CEE would still make sense, as cars are high margin expensive items that some inland (train) freight in the continent is probably economical. Cars are even shipped over the ocean.

In Hungary when driving along the Budapest-Wien railway I can often see trains full of cars on some stations waiting for their timeslot (passenger trains have priority over freight in Europe).

Re:Tesla battle with Swedish unions spreads to Denmark by ffgjgf1 on Tuesday December 05, 2023 @05:30AM (#38529145)
> This might be the one move stupider than starting this fight, an innovator's dilemma [1] own goal

Why? What does it have to do with the “innovators dilemma”?

Re:Tesla battle with Swedish unions spreads to Denmark by JumpCrisscross on Tuesday December 05, 2023 @05:53AM (#38529310)
> What does it have to do with the “innovators dilemma”?

Beachhead. You’re opening a beachhead for a competitor to start small with ample margins.

Re:Tesla battle with Swedish unions spreads to Denmark by ffgjgf1 on Tuesday December 05, 2023 @07:30AM (#38529968)
I still don’t really understand. Are we still talking about Tesla building its factory in Germany instead of one of the CEE countries (with no/weak union and low labor costs)?