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Re:No new boss at NSA until it answers questions on buying l... by yterdy on Saturday December 02, 2023 @10:54AM (#38499447)
"Property rights" are laughable, especially in America. Stolen or conned resources abound, and all that matters is that someone from the state recognizes your ownership over someone else's (however crooked that circumstance may have come about or been perpetuated). Eminent domain, deed scams, excessive rent-seeking; all are par-for-the-course.

As a tangential example: my roommate and I have paid $115,000 in rent for our current unit. Condos in this area went for $250k-$300k in 2018, when we moved in, but we didn't have a down payment. So, fast forward 5 years, and the management company (after jacking up payments 30+%) isn't renewing our lease. Do the math: assuming a hypothetical where the mean payment over this period was stable for a 30-year mortgage, we could have afforded to pay principal+interest+fees+maintenance of almost $700k, almost *two* comparable condos. In a sane system, it would be recognized that "rights" defaulting to an entity that is not paying 2x the holding and upkeep costs of a property is ridiculous at best, and economically unsustainable if a widespread phenomenon (which it is). Instead, my roommate and I get nothing, because we're getting kicked out in a few days. Because we couldn't afford an arbitrary down payment.

The mindless appeal to "property rights" seems to absolve you of the responsibility to consider these complexities, I guess.

Re:No new boss at NSA until it answers questions on buying l... by hollerith on Saturday December 02, 2023 @11:48AM (#38499886)
If we had the kind of legal system you want (where arguments like the one you just gave sometimes prevailed in court) nothing would ever get done because arguments about who owns what and who owes who (and how much) would abound and go on forever.
Re:No new boss at NSA until it answers questions on buying l... by yterdy on Saturday December 02, 2023 @02:32PM (#38501262)
No need to throw out the legal system, just change the law. Currently, failure to adhere to norms can lock you out of the market entirely (thanks to companies like SafeRent). If the spectrum is homelessness -> rental -> homeownership, then the opposite should be true: successful and proactive stewardship of a property should entitle you to it, regardless of the current owner's claim (but especially in the case of practical absenteeism).

Note that half of this country was settled this way.

The alternative that is the current status quo is real estate corporations in New York and Delaware disrupting community fabric 200, 500, 1000 miles away in the name of quarterly profits. Legality is not the measure of morality.

Re:No new boss at NSA until it answers questions on buying l... by kenjackson on Saturday December 02, 2023 @11:44AM (#38499852)
Didn’t you get to live there? Thats what you paid for I presume?

I’ve spent a lot of money at fast food over the years, but no one has given me a franchise.

Re:No new boss at NSA until it answers questions on buying l... by yterdy on Saturday December 02, 2023 @02:37PM (#38501304)
Likewise, a society forced to spend 2x or more the cost of a home-cooked meal on fast food is not going to be a healthy one. From a broad economic perspective, rentals that cost so much more than purchases (which are inaccessible in part because so many are only on the market as rentals) aren't sustainable.

>Thats what you paid for I presume?

I presume I paid for shelter, but also someone's luxury car or home renovation.

Re:No new boss at NSA until it answers questions on buying l... by ericmay on Saturday December 02, 2023 @12:00PM (#38499962)
> yterdy 1 hour ago | parent | next [–]

"Property rights" are laughable, especially in America. Stolen or conned resources abound, and all that matters is that someone from the state recognizes your ownership over someone else's (however crooked that circumstance may have come about or been perpetuated).

All humans in the world live, have lived, or will live under the exact same circumstances. It’s a good sounding clip but it’s meaningless, rooted in cynicism, and less than useless since it detracts from the ability to make progress.

Re:No new boss at NSA until it answers questions on buying l... by yterdy on Saturday December 02, 2023 @02:10PM (#38501087)
I'm interested in how you might respond if asked to do so in something other than meaningless platitudes.
Re:No new boss at NSA until it answers questions on buying l... by ericmay on Saturday December 02, 2023 @06:07PM (#38503128)
You offered surface level commentary that was immature and naive. If I can effectively rebut that commentary with a meaningless platitude you should examine your initial commentary and understand why it was unpersuasive (and not very interesting).
Re:No new boss at NSA until it answers questions on buying l... by yterdy on Monday December 04, 2023 @01:54PM (#38521413)
>If I can effectively rebut that commentary with a meaningless platitude

Therein lies the rub: you can't. Or, at least, didn't. Each of your statements is falsifiable, particularly the last, which is a confession masquerading as an accusation. There are few worse ways to "make progress" than to dismiss criticism of the status quo out-of-hand.

Re:No new boss at NSA until it answers questions on buying l... by Dalewyn on Saturday December 02, 2023 @11:46AM (#38499868)
You are (or were) renting your apartment, you never owned it. Those property rights are held by your landlord or otherwise whoever owns that apartment, you were just a tenant.

If you want to hold and exercise property rights, you need to own property. Renting a property does not mean you own it. It's as simple as that.

Re:No new boss at NSA until it answers questions on buying l... by yterdy on Saturday December 02, 2023 @02:22PM (#38501173)
>The mindless appeal to "property rights" seems to absolve you of the responsibility to consider these complexities, I guess.

My argument relies on acknowledging what you've said as the current, horribly dysfunctional reality. You don't need to state it plainly.

What happens to a society when a large subset of the population is forced to subsidize a 100% profit margin on the most expensive basic good most will ever put money towards, and it doesn't even buy them stability or predictability in access to that good? I guess we're going to find out.